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Yes, socialism is good

6 (27.3%)

No, socialism is bad

11 (50%)

Maybe, still thinking about it

1 (4.5%)

Huh?

4 (18.2%)

Total Members Voted: 22

[HandBall]

"To be honest with you, that infuriates me," plumber Joe Wurzelbacher told Nightline's Terry Moran. "It's not right for someone to decide you made too much---that you've done too good and now we're going to take some of it back."  "That's just completely wrong," he added.

"I don't like it," said Wurzelbacher. "You know, me or -- you know, Bill Gates, I don't care who you are. If you worked for it, if it was your idea, and you implemented it, it's not right for someone to decide you made too much."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/joe-the-plumber.html

And Joe said this today on Good Morning America:

"Well, I mean, quite honestly, why should they be penalized for being successful? That's what you're telling me, that's what it sounds like you're saying. It's wrong. I mean, because you're successful, you have to pay more than everybody else. I mean, we all live in this country, you know, I mean it's a basic right. And Obama wants to take that basic right and penalize me for it is what it comes down to. I mean, that's a very socialist view, and it's incredibly wrong. I mean, if it's $250,000 now, what if he decides, "Well, $150,000 you're pretty rich, too. Let's go ahead and lower it again." You know, it's a slippery slope. When's it going to stop?"

[Brat Jr]

reminds me of a joke


. . . there was a little red hen who scratched about the barnyard until she uncovered quite a few grains of wheat. She called all of her neighbors together and said, "If we plant this wheat, we shall have bread to eat. Who will help me plant it?"

"Not I," said the cow.
"Not I," said the duck.
"Not I," said the pig.
"Not I," said the goose.

"Then I will do it by myself," said the little red hen. And so she did; The wheat grew very tall and ripened into golden grain. "Who will help me reap my wheat?" asked the little red hen.
"Not I," said the duck.

"Out of my classification," said the pig.
"I'd lose my seniority," said the cow.
"I'd lose my unemployment compensation," said the goose.

"Then I will do it by myself," said the little red hen, and so she did. At last it came time to bake the bread. "Who will help me bake the bread?" asked the little red hen.

"That would be overtime for me," said the cow.
"I'd lose my welfare benefits," said the duck.
"I'm a dropout and never learned how," said the pig.
"If I'm to be the only helper, that's discrimination," said the goose.

"Then I will do it by myself," said the little red hen.

She baked five loaves and held them up for all of her neighbors to see. They
wanted some and, in fact, demanded a share. But the little red hen said, "No,
I shall eat all five loaves."

"Excess profits!" cried the cow.
"Capitalist leech!" screamed the duck.
"I demand equal rights!" yelled the goose.
The pig just grunted in disdain.

And they all painted "Unfair!" picket signs and marched around and around
the little red hen, shouting obscenities.

When the government agent came, he said to the little red hen, "You must not be so greedy."

"But I earned the bread," said the little red hen.

"Exactly," said the agent. "That is what makes our free enterprise system so wonderful. Anyone in the barnyard can earn as much as he wants. But under our modern government regulations, the productive workers must divide the fruits of their labor with those who are lazy and idle."

And they all lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, for now I truly understand." But her neighbors became quite disappointed in her, for she never again baked any more bread.

[HandBall]

And they all lived happily ever after, including the little red hen, who smiled and clucked, "I am grateful, for now I truly understand." But her neighbors became quite disappointed in her, for she never again baked any more bread.

Darn right!  +1

But here's the end of the story.  A drought hit the farm the following year, and starvation hit the farm.  And the little red hen, no longer making bread or saving any of the extra loaves she couldn't eat for a rainy day, had nothing to share to save the others, and nothing left to save herself.  All the chickens suffered the same fate, and chicken historians would write of their demise blaming the little red hen for her selfishness and greed.

[HandBall]

I would genuinely be interested in reading reasons why socialism is healthy for a country?  Two people have voted that socialism is good.  I can finally fully understand why a person would vote for Obama if they believe socialism is good.  Those votes are the first real issue response I've seen yet that makes sense.  But I'd really like to know how government taking money from some people, and government deciding who should get that money, and then handing other people's money to them is good?  I'd also like to understand how giving people something will lead them to become more self-reliant, productive members of our society?  Or is that not important?

Please.  You're anonymous.  Please tell me why socialism is good?

[yote19]

Dory Monson (I was channel surfing yesterday) had an interesting discussion about our state and how inept a couple of state agencies are doing controlling various depts.  For example DSHS and Animal Control.  Both are bordering on complete beauracracy, overfunding and no ability to fix their jurisdictions.  They are talking about putting these agencies into the private sector.  Why???  Because even though DSHS is the largest line item on the budget for the state of Washington, we still get the issues of the starving child in Snoqualmie???  Even after there was a case opened and investigated by this agency.  Animal Control is worse.

Do we really think the national government can do better in these agencies from a national perspective, than local jurisdictions can do annually.  I believe we will continue to throw money at the problem (like health care) and the government will prove their ineptitude.

[goldengoal]

If you think Socialism is good, move to Cuba. Just kidding! I would like to point out that many of you out there who are thinking about voting for Obama you really need to look into who Alinsky is. I knew he would eventually screw it up, I said it weeks ago and some probably thought I was nuts. The other thing I hate is government controlled healthcare. If you think things are bad now, you better be ready for an eye opener. Obama plans healthcare for everyone, but how is he going to pay for it? Do you think the rich can carry us forever? He may say he is only raising taxes on the rich, big business or anyone over 250K, but if you think business pay taxes who are kidding yourself. When you go pump gas in your vehicle, did you know there are taxes added to that? Who do you think is paying them, Exxon or you?

[Dragon]

LOL

I feel so bad for McCain and ANYONE who would use this fraud; "joe the plumber" as a reference to anything

I bet McCain and all the "Joe Plumber" fans felt pretty darn silly after learning the truth today:


NEW YORK – John McCain hung his final presidential debate performance on an Ohio plumber who campaign aides never vetted.  (KINDA REMINDS ME OF THE SARAH PALIN SELECTION) LOL

A day after making Joseph Wurzelbacher famous, referencing him in the debate almost two dozen times as someone who would pay higher taxes under Barack Obama, McCain learned the fine print Thursday on the plumber’s not-so-tidy personal story: He owes back taxes. He is not a licensed plumber. And it turns out that Wurzelbacher makes less than $250,000 a year, which means he would receive a tax cut if Obama were elected president.

While the arc of Wurzelbacher’s breakneck trip through the news cycle – from private citizen to insta-celebrity to political target – offers a curious insight into the political media culture, it also appears to offer a glimpse into the McCain campaign’s on-the-fly decisionmaking style. (and also some posters) LOL

A McCain source said Thursday that the campaign read about Wurzelbacher on the Drudge Report, while another campaign aide confirmed that he was not vetted. (another Sarah reference??) LOL Senior McCain adviser Matt McDonald told Politico after the debate that Wurzelbacher was not aware that he would become central to the candidates’ third and final showdown, although Wurzelbacher told reporters Thursday that the McCain campaign contacted him earlier in the week (Earlier in the WEEK?? You mean this was a "planned thing"?  tell me it isn't so LOL) to ask him to appear with the candidate at a Toledo rally scheduled for Sunday. (He may not make it, now that he's scheduled to be in New York for TV interviews.)

“Joe, if you're watching, I'm sorry,” McCain said Thursday, referring to the press attention that the Ohio man had received, during a taping of the Late Show with David Letterman.


You guys made my day by bringing up this ridiculous individual who was already a registered Republican and an obvious plant.....NOW I understand why Dino Rossi only claims GOP and NOT Republican...I would be imbarrassed too...

see ya'll on Nov 4th

[2 CENTS]

I would genuinely be interested in reading reasons why socialism is healthy for a country?  Two people have voted that socialism is good.  I can finally fully understand why a person would vote for Obama if they believe socialism is good.  Those votes are the first real issue response I've seen yet that makes sense.  But I'd really like to know how government taking money from some people, and government deciding who should get that money, and then handing other people's money to them is good?  I'd also like to understand how giving people something will lead them to become more self-reliant, productive members of our society?  Or is that not important?

Please.  You're anonymous.  Please tell me why socialism is good?

Good one HandBall,

To suggest that this government is moving towards socialism is really funny. You should save this one for the next election when the top 3% only have 80% of the wealth instead of 90%, we’ll be well on our way.

Next you’ll be telling us stories like “Obama isn’t eligible to be President” or “we should do away with all taxes”

Keep them coming, now I get it, 

[English1]

Loved the post Dragon...

[HandBall]

I feel so bad for McCain and ANYONE who would use this fraud; "joe the plumber" as a reference to anything

I bet McCain and all the "Joe Plumber" fans felt pretty darn silly after learning the truth today

I'll tell you what I saw today, and everyone on the right expected since last Saturday who learned of this story.  That the vile attack-dogs on the left and in the media would make it a point to destroy a guy who simply asked a presidential candidate a couple questions, and that the presidential candidate was made uncomfortable having his socialist views finally challenged.  And the guys real sin, was getting Obama to state on camera his real vision for America.  People are angry with Joe the plumber, not because of who he is, but because of what he did to expose who Obama is.  And instead of facing the fact that Obama is a socialist, his supporters have gone crazy with anger and want this guy from Ohio punished for tarnishing the golden armor of their champion.  Obama stated his view loud and clear; one where government will punish the successful and take what they have and give it to those that didn't earn it.  What he said cannot be retracted, and no matter whether the left can destroy Joe the plumber, the truth is out there to be repeated and repeated for the next couple weeks.

And before you start quoting this 95% tax cut nonsense, explain what happens when the Bush tax cuts are not renewed?  Or how you give a tax cut to a 3rd of taxpayers who pay no income taxes.  Or why Obama and Biden continue to fail to understand the difference between an individual earning $250,000 versus a small business doing $250,000 in revenue?  They are lying through their teeth and their supporters are either gobbling it up like brain-dead robots, or they are choosing to accept the lies so they don't have to face the truth about their candidates.

What I learned today on this forum is that there are some very angry folks who think large fonts, bold colors, and personal attacks and innuendo is the proper use of freedom of speech.  Every attack against this guy is irrelevant to anything he has said.  But of course when people can't attack the words or the facts, they can always attack the man and punish him for having the guts to stand up and simply ask some questions that the Obama media won't ask.

Maybe instead of attacking everyone else, you might want to take a look at your candidate and attempt to see through that glow that seems to have you so blinded.  Joe the plumber was not the news on last Saturday.  That would be the Saturday before "earlier in the week" Dragon.  Joe the plumber simply made news by catching Obama in a candid moment, away from the teleprompters and speechwriters, where his socialist views were displayed and recorded for all Americans to see.

Deny this moment of honesty all you want.  And while attacking Joe Wurzelbacher for asking the questions is bad enough, using it as an opportunity to attack John McCain and even bringing Sarah Palin into your attacks is simply pathetic.  BTW, are Republicans not allowed at Obama rallies, or is being a worshiper a requirement before entry is allowed?

But let's look at these attacks from the New York Times today, the Obama newspaper of record in this campaign.

Why vet a private citizen?  How does the life of a guy who asked some questions relate to the questions asked and the answers given?

He owes back taxes.  Due when, October 15?  Is he working with the IRS to settle his debt?  Who's business is that of anyone?  Is he running for office?  Is there a warrant out for his arrest?  No, he just asked Obama some questions.

He's not licensed.  Wonder what that costs?  Wonder what union dues would cost and what percentage of the dues go to supporting Democrats in Ohio?  Of course the questions are irrelevant when liberals are in attack mode.  All good citizens must join unions and pay their dues to support Democrats, right?

Dragon, in what fantasy world do you live in to continue the ridiculous charge that McCain didn't vet Sarah Palin?  Because some in the media have suggested it does that pass for the factual basis for your repeated attacks on that subject?  What exactly do you believe happened before the nomination?  One could easily ask whether Joe Biden was adequately vetted, given the dozens of falsehoods and gaffs he's made, but you don't hear that from Republicans, do you?

I learned of Joe last Saturday in an email from a friend that I received late Sunday night.  That was before the story was on Drudge, and before the McCain campaign claims to have contacted him "earlier in the week".  Get it?  No conspiracy.  Another unfair bit of innuendo, don't you think?

"Obvious plant" you say.  Ok, so he had this evil plan to sneak into this Obama rally and ask Obama a question.  Wow, that's pretty awful.  I guess he could have alleged that someone had yelled, "kill him" as appears now to have been falsely charged during a Palin rally, but asking a question is pretty radical.  But then maybe it is pretty radical in this campaign that anyone would challenge Obama to his face, isn't it?

How many smites have you sent my way Dragon?  How many of the 42 smites I've received come from you and others who simply don't like reading anything that conflicts with your beliefs?  Given the number of unfair charges and attacks included in just your comment today, you have easily eclipsed anyone on this forum in recent weeks with unfair and petty attacks.

---

2 CENTS, if you can't see what is happening in this country, go right along denying it.  Social Spending is out of control. Democrats have just destroyed the credit industry and now the government is buying pieces of banks and will most assuredly mess up that industry further.  The stock market is scared silly at the prospect of an Obama presidency with Democrats in control.  Obama wants government to subsidize personal energy consumption, wants government to lead industries through federal funding into the development of energy alternatives of the government's choosing, and at the expense of short-term energy prices and the devastation that is causing on families with fixed incomes.  And if Obama is given a chance to preside over a Democrat Senate and Congress, I hope you are happy with the results.  Because if you think Obama, Reid and Pelosi will stop at $200,000, I'll bet you believed Bill Clinton in 1992 when he promised a middle class tax cut too.

[Gumby]

Dragon, the messenger is not important.  It just happened to be Joe the plummer.  It could just as easily been Rosie the cleaning lady, Xue the manicurist, or Sam the house builder.

It is the message from Barack Obama that is what is really important.  That message: "I'm gonna spread the wealth around."

I was warming up to Barrack, but that statement, to me, belies what is truly in his heart... and that is "income redistribution" a key tenet of socialism.  Along with Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid leading what may be a filibuster-proof senate, Obama will be able to redistribute to his heart's content.

I'm not ready to live in a socialistic state.

[goldengoal]

LOL

I feel so bad for McCain and ANYONE who would use this fraud; "joe the plumber" as a reference to anything

I bet McCain and all the "Joe Plumber" fans felt pretty darn silly after learning the truth today:


NEW YORK – John McCain hung his final presidential debate performance on an Ohio plumber who campaign aides never vetted.  (KINDA REMINDS ME OF THE SARAH PALIN SELECTION) LOL

A day after making Joseph Wurzelbacher famous, referencing him in the debate almost two dozen times as someone who would pay higher taxes under Barack Obama, McCain learned the fine print Thursday on the plumber’s not-so-tidy personal story: He owes back taxes. He is not a licensed plumber. And it turns out that Wurzelbacher makes less than $250,000 a year, which means he would receive a tax cut if Obama were elected president.

While the arc of Wurzelbacher’s breakneck trip through the news cycle – from private citizen to insta-celebrity to political target – offers a curious insight into the political media culture, it also appears to offer a glimpse into the McCain campaign’s on-the-fly decisionmaking style. (and also some posters) LOL

A McCain source said Thursday that the campaign read about Wurzelbacher on the Drudge Report, while another campaign aide confirmed that he was not vetted. (another Sarah reference??) LOL Senior McCain adviser Matt McDonald told Politico after the debate that Wurzelbacher was not aware that he would become central to the candidates’ third and final showdown, although Wurzelbacher told reporters Thursday that the McCain campaign contacted him earlier in the week (Earlier in the WEEK?? You mean this was a "planned thing"?  tell me it isn't so LOL) to ask him to appear with the candidate at a Toledo rally scheduled for Sunday. (He may not make it, now that he's scheduled to be in New York for TV interviews.)

“Joe, if you're watching, I'm sorry,” McCain said Thursday, referring to the press attention that the Ohio man had received, during a taping of the Late Show with David Letterman.


You guys made my day by bringing up this ridiculous individual who was already a registered Republican and an obvious plant.....NOW I understand why Dino Rossi only claims GOP and NOT Republican...I would be imbarrassed too...

see ya'll on Nov 4th

Dragon,

I know you are in the tank, but at least be clever enough to realize what Obama said and not who he said it too. I am sure the media has tried to turn this around to distract you from what Obama said "Spread the wealth". Who he said it too does not matter, the fact that he said it was the point.

Let me give you a soccer example: A player(Obama) is knocking people(Regular Joe) down all over the field and everyone is witnessing, but the parents on the mean kids side are just keeping quiet because the kid is helping the team win. In one instance this kid takes out another kid and breaks their leg and then walks on the broken leg. The kid with the broken leg yells at the ref(Media) for a foul, but the ref ignores it and instead gives the kid with a broken leg a red card because they screamed in pain, their jersey wasn't tucked in all the way and on their way down they accidentally touched the ball with their hands. Who is the fair one?

[cheese]

Dragon,

I know you are in the tank, but at least be clever enough to realize what Obama said and not who he said it too. I am sure the media has tried to turn this around to distract you from what Obama said "Spread the wealth". Who he said it too does not matter, the fact that he said it was the point.

Let me give you a soccer example: A player(Obama) is knocking people(Regular Joe) down all over the field and everyone is witnessing, but the parents on the mean kids side are just keeping quiet because the kid is helping the team win. In one instance this kid takes out another kid and breaks their leg and then walks on the broken leg. The kid with the broken leg yells at the ref(Media) for a foul, but the ref ignores it and instead gives the kid with a broken leg a red card because they screamed in pain, their jersey wasn't tucked in all the way and on their way down they accidentally touched the ball with their hands. Who is the fair one?

Did the team win?

[HandBall]

The Washington Post endorsed Obama today.
"Yes, we have reservations and concerns, almost inevitably, given Mr. Obama's relatively brief experience in national politics"

"Mr. Obama's economic plan contains its share of unaffordable promises, but it pushes more in the direction of fairness and fiscal health."

I particularly like the reference to Obama's two books, as the only evidence that he understands the complexities of foreign policy.  Experience that would have led us to surrender in Iraq, but words in a couple autobiographies are good enough for the Post.

Of course there is no mention of his socialist beliefs.  No mention of his plans for income redistribution besides the Post's reference to his direction of fairness.  Nothing about his beliefs to share the wealth of America's more successful earners with those who have not obtained the same success, regardless of the causes of their failures.  No, the first of the big liberal newspapers has endorsed socialism as the path for America.

The New York Times is set to endorse Barack Obama this weekend.  So the New York Times is also going to endorse a guy who believes in socialism.  Does anyone doubt for a second that the Times hasn't been supporting Obama for the last 2 years, or even all the way back to that keynote address at the Democrat Convention?   No surprise here.  The paper has been his biggest fan, printed many of the worst hit-pieces against McCain and Palin, and now they are going to endorse Obama.  Should be an interesting read as they justify their endorsement while ignoring Obama's "share the wealth" beliefs, otherwise referred to as socialism.

[Gumby]

Handball,

I thought I saw somewhere where you said under Obama's tax plan he will issue tax rebates (or credits, I don't remember) to people that pay zero taxes.  I can't find it now, but can you point me to an official link that points that out.

If true, that would be a game breaker for me. 

[HandBall]

Handball,

I thought I saw somewhere where you said under Obama's tax plan he will issue tax rebates (or credits, I don't remember) to people that pay zero taxes.  I can't find it now, but can you point me to an official link that points that out.

If true, that would be a game breaker for me. 

It's one of those undeniable realities of a claim to cut the taxes of 95% of taxpayers.  One third of taxpayers, pay zero income tax.  In other words, they make a level of income that results in zero income taxes after they have taken their deductions, exemptions, and applied the tax tables.  Yes, over one third of Americans who file a 1040 form, pay zero income taxes.

Obama's plan is to offer a series of credits that will send a check to a third of all taxpayers, even though they pay no income taxes at all.  Now Obama can argue that this is a rebate of their social security and medicare payroll deductions, but he has not made that claim.  No, the only way his claim to provide tax cuts to the "other" 95% of Americans left after increasing taxes on the top 5% is to send them money they haven't paid.  He will take from the top 5% and give money to the lower 35% of taxpayers who pay zero income taxes.  It's not unlike his false claim that McCain is going to tax health care benefits for the majority of Americans.  Yes, McCain has proposed taxing company-provided health care benefits.  Yes, they are part of an employee's compensation and health care is not paid to all employees.  But Obama intentionally ignores McCain's other part of his health care plan, the $5,000 health care credit.  For the overwhelming majority of Americans who will pay taxes on their health care, that $5,000 credit will more than offset the benefit, while providing the same credit for people without provided health care to go out and buy it with the subsidy. But I'm off on a tangent now...

Back to Obama's 95% claim in general, Obama does not count his support for the Democrat's plans to let the Bush tax cuts expire.  So if you were to factor that into his claim, then the claim of tax cuts for the 60% of the taxpayers who pay income taxes, is false too.  With the loss of those cuts, including the cut in the Child Tax Credit, everyone is likely to see their taxes increase, with the temporary increases in revenue going to checks to the folks who pay no taxes, funding his new big-government programs.  I say temporary, because history shows that tax increases eventually reduce revenue to the government, while tax cuts increase revenue.

But here is the answer to your question (based on 2006 tax returns):
"The IRS data below include all of the 135.7 million tax returns filed in 2006 that had a positive AGI [adjusted gross income], not just the returns from people who earned enough to owe taxes. From other IRS data, we can see that in 2006, 92.7 million of the tax returns came from people who paid taxes into the Treasury. That leaves 43 million tax returns filed by people with positive AGI who used exemptions, deductions and tax credits to completely wipe out their federal income tax liability. Not only did they get back every dollar that the federal government withheld from their paychecks during 2005, but some even received more back from the IRS."
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

Check out Table 1 for the breakdown of who pays taxes and how much.

That's 32% of taxpayers in 2005 either paid nothing, or "received" a check back from the government for a net payment made to them.  That number has inched upward in the last two years, and I've heard it stated to be closer to 35% today.  That also explains how the bottom 50% of all taxpayers can be paying only 3% of all the income taxes to the government.

If Obama's promise can be believed, then the only way for that 35% to receive the perceived tax cut that Obama is attempting to buy their vote with, is for them to receive an additional net income FROM the government.  Not something back that they've paid, but a check from the IRS paid for with someone else's money.

Oh, and how does Obama address those millions of Americans who, after calculating their adjusted gross income, don't even need to file a tax return?  You can bet the Democrats will figure out a way to send them a check too, if they get a filibuster-proof majority.

[Dragon]

Wish D had more time to chat, but will leave U with the ObamaTaxCalculator....

Have fun

http://taxcut.barackobama.com/


Follow the instructions and see how much $ (if any) you will get. 

~Dragon the Plumber

[HandBall]

Have fun

http://taxcut.barackobama.com/

Follow the instructions and see how much $ (if any) you will get. 

~Dragon the Plumber

"And see how much $ (if any) you will get."

So that is what this election is about?  Obama is going to take money earned by other people and give it to you?  Vote for him because he is going to give you money if you give him your vote?  What is your vote worth?

I wonder if I created an equally ridiculous website that offered a higher bribe with nothing defending how it is calculated, would that be all it takes to buy votes from people?

[Gumby]

You're right, D.  That was fun and in fact Obama would save me $1300.00 where McCain only $229.00.

Just for fun I then plugged in a family earning $30,000 with two kids and a $100,000 mortgage.  It told me Obama would save me $1609.00.  I don't know how to figure this now, but does anyone out there know how much this family would have paid in income tax last year?

[cheese]

You're right, D.  That was fun and in fact Obama would save me $1300.00 where McCain only $229.00.

Just for fun I then plugged in a family earning $30,000 with two kids and a $100,000 mortgage.  It told me Obama would save me $1609.00.  I don't know how to figure this now, but does anyone out there know how much this family would have paid in income tax last year?

Just assuming that this family did their write-offs already and had a taxable income of $30,000......thier overall taxes would be roughly $3,749.  Then subtract the Child Tax Credit (thanks to the Bush plan) of $1,000 per kid and you're down to owing $1,749.00 in taxes.
(remember, this is just the basics.....i'm not doing anyone's taxes)

So if they owe $1749 and they get a Obama Tax Break of $1609, that leaves them only paying $140.00 in taxes for the entire year (just over $10 per month). 
Looks like they would get just about ALL the taxes they paid during the year.

[2bafan]

You're right, D.  That was fun and in fact Obama would save me $1300.00 where McCain only $229.00.

Just for fun I then plugged in a family earning $30,000 with two kids and a $100,000 mortgage.  It told me Obama would save me $1609.00.  I don't know how to figure this now, but does anyone out there know how much this family would have paid in income tax last year?

Just assuming that this family did their write-offs already and had a taxable income of $30,000......thier overall taxes would be roughly $3,749.  Then subtract the Child Tax Credit (thanks to the Bush plan) of $1,000 per kid and you're down to owing $1,749.00 in taxes.
(remember, this is just the basics.....i'm not doing anyone's taxes)

So if they owe $1749 and they get a Obama Tax Break of $1609, that leaves them only paying $140.00 in taxes for the entire year (just over $10 per month). 
Looks like they would get just about ALL the taxes they paid during the year.

I get a better answer   $30,000 - 10,700 (standard deduction assuming mortgage / real estate tax lower) - 13,600 (4 x 3400 personal exemptions) = 5,700 taxable income at 10% tax  = $570 then take the child tax credit and should end up with zero tax but possibly money in the pocket under a new plan or even under the existing plan I didn't calculate it out that far...

[yote19]

You're right, D.  That was fun and in fact Obama would save me $1300.00 where McCain only $229.00.

Just for fun I then plugged in a family earning $30,000 with two kids and a $100,000 mortgage.  It told me Obama would save me $1609.00.  I don't know how to figure this now, but does anyone out there know how much this family would have paid in income tax last year?

Dang Gumby same as me....what up with that.

[Gumby]

You're right, D.  That was fun and in fact Obama would save me $1300.00 where McCain only $229.00.

Just for fun I then plugged in a family earning $30,000 with two kids and a $100,000 mortgage.  It told me Obama would save me $1609.00.  I don't know how to figure this now, but does anyone out there know how much this family would have paid in income tax last year?

Just assuming that this family did their write-offs already and had a taxable income of $30,000......thier overall taxes would be roughly $3,749.  Then subtract the Child Tax Credit (thanks to the Bush plan) of $1,000 per kid and you're down to owing $1,749.00 in taxes.
(remember, this is just the basics.....i'm not doing anyone's taxes)

So if they owe $1749 and they get a Obama Tax Break of $1609, that leaves them only paying $140.00 in taxes for the entire year (just over $10 per month). 
Looks like they would get just about ALL the taxes they paid during the year.

I get a better answer   $30,000 - 10,700 (standard deduction assuming mortgage / real estate tax lower) - 13,600 (4 x 3400 personal exemptions) = 5,700 taxable income at 10% tax  = $570 then take the child tax credit and should end up with zero tax but possibly money in the pocket under a new plan or even under the existing plan I didn't calculate it out that far...

So... where is the truth?  I don't have a problem with the more well off paying a larger share of their income than those struggling.  Cheese's example I can live with, but 2bafan's... uh, nope!    I can understand paying very little, but getting a check?  That, comrades, is socialism.

BTW, did anyone watch 20/20 tonight?  I never do on Friday's, but after watching Issaquah get their butt's kicked by Skyline in football tonight, I did.  Is that John Stossel guy always so right on the money?  I thought he was fantastic.  I'm gonna have to tape next week.