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[HandBall]

One television network has chosen to act in direct opposition to the Obama administration.  That network is applying all its resources to uncovering what the rest of the national media has worked for two years to cover-up.  While the left accuses this network of bias, the rest of the mainstream media is working in absolute collusion with the administration to advance its agenda, cover-up the president's history, associations, and unhidden socialist designs for America that are increasingly available in video in his own words.

As difficult as it may be for some to watch the following two segments from the Glenn Beck show, the question I have is whether loyalty to this president has blinded his supporters from considering the growing evidence of this administration's direction for change in America? For example, if it was proven to you beyond a doubt that this administration and the dozens of Czars appointed by Obama had a very ugly plan for America, would you, could you, allow the overwhelming evidence to change your view of this man and the facade that has been built around him?

If you support Obama, but you have the courage to watch and hear arguments that raise questions about what is happening in America, I ask you to watch the following segments from Glenn Beck's FoxNews program today. 

No one should fear the exercising of free speech, but we all must fear the forces that would suppress that freedom and resort to associating honest Americans with Nazis, or calling them un-American for simply demanding answers of their elected representatives. Myself, I've never been more fearful for my country as I am now, and for the tens of millions of Americans who are going to be devastated by these policies, both financially and culturally, if enacted.

You decide whether this is an act, delusional, or the words of an American justifiably fearful for this nation. Beck, unlike those he opposes, asks the questions, brings in experts to answer them, and is prepared to stand up to the most powerful man in the world. He's doing it every day at 2 PM on Fox, or until he is stopped by his enemies.





If you answered my earlier poll stating that you love everything he is doing, I'd especially appreciate a PM with your view of these clips. I give you my word that I will not keep, or reveal your IDs or content of your PMs.  I truly am trying to understand the basis for the loyalty Americans have given a man and administration that the mainstream media is hiding from America.

[yote19]

How come neither link came up?  hmmm will try again later.

[juggles]

Another person who thinks fox reports the news....do you also think the world is flat?

[HandBall]

Another person who thinks fox reports the news....do you also think the world is flat?

Columbus stood alone in a world that believed the world was flat. Who is Columbus today and who are the Koolaid drinkers who refuse to look beyond what the liberal Obama-loving MSM feeds them?

[krumpet]

I have seen the world and it is flat...at least in jonestown

[cheese]

Ever stand in the middle of Kansas? 

[basketballdad]

I will agree on only one point. Those on the right and the left that throw out the word Nazi of Facist  every time they don't like a law that is passed, a police action that takes place, critics who attack their opinion, or a Supreme Court decision they don't like do only two things: demean those that actually suffered through the tyranny of the real Nazi's and show to the world their lack of intellectual prowess by choosing to use an inflammatory word to demean their opponent and/or stifle free speech.

[HandBall]

I will agree on only one point. Those on the right and the left that throw out the word Nazi of Facist  every time they don't like a law that is passed, a police action that takes place, critics who attack their opinion, or a Supreme Court decision they don't like do only two things: demean those that actually suffered through the tyranny of the real Nazi's and show to the world their lack of intellectual prowess by choosing to use an inflammatory word to demean their opponent and/or stifle free speech.

The references tying Obama to Hitler are known to have originated with Lyndon LaRouche supporters, right down to the posters you're seeing now on the evening news. You'll note that the MSM has neglected to inform it's viewers and readers of that little tidbit. Just part of the continuing propaganda effort of distorting the all-American opposition to this very un-American plan for a socialized America.

As for the use of the word Fascist, Fascism has a very specific definition. Here is just one: "A political regime ideologically based on centralized government, government control of business, repression of criticism or opposition, a leader cult and exalting the state above individual rights "

Now when looking at an administration that is building an entirely separate government within the Executive Branch, with dozens of Czars being created to levy mandates on every aspect of life, and unaccountable to Congress and outside definition in the US Constitution, the use of the word Fascist to describe Barack Obama, while arguable, has plenty of evidence to back it up. Government takeovers of banks, insurance, auto industry, now attempting to take over health care. Ridicule and attacks on free speech orchestrated from the White House, government officials calling citizens "un-American" and accusing them without evidence of carrying Swastikas. A leader with tens of millions following him based solely on the words he's spoken, with virtually no available history, except two books defining a life impossible to verify. A government pursuing Social Justice at the expense of individual rights. Sounds like the textbook definition of a fascist regime to me.

[basketballdad]

Handball I can't emphatically disagree with you more. While articulate and well informed that does not change my opinion of what you are saying if you are trying to insinuate that this administration is facist. You have done yourself a disservice by this ridiculous accusation.I did not buy the liberal argument that Bush's presidency was facist by his wire tapping, executive orders that you could argue went well beyond the constitution, the various issues surrounding how and why we went to war, prisoners in Guatanamo with no rights under any law,  etc. The extreme left painted Bush as some sort of right wing ideologue bent on taking over the entire government. Now you make the same argument in reverse. Both are substantially in error and in my opinion do nothing except inflame and scare those that need something to be scared about. While I disagreed with Bush on most issues I was confident that our system of checks and balances will work. The same is true for those that see the same in Obama.

To even begin to believe that the term facist is even remotely possible here you have to believe that the right leaning Supreme Court is powerless since they ultimately decide what is and what is not constitutional. You have to assume that Congress, even with huge majorities in both Houses, is nothing but a lapdog for Obama. That is interesting given the fact that Obama's health care plan is running into roadblock after roadblock. You also have to assume Bush must have been in bed with Obama since it was administration that began the whole stimulus package and bailout scenario.

The whole ridicule comment is beneath you also. Satire, cartoons, critical comments have been a part of political speech for so long. Remember the duel between statesmen because of speech. I bet you are one of the few on here who know who they were. Read a few political cartoons when Lincoln ran for the Senate. While I am not a supporter of infantile name calling and screaming it is not worth the hurt feelings everyone is throwing out there. Let me tell you I would feel safer having someone call me names, even Nazi, than go to some public meeting with a bunch of armed people shouting things. I stand by my statements regarding the use of Facist and Nazi.

[1usa1]

I'm surprised that you folks still live in this area.....I'm shocked that you all haven't joined some survivalist cult and moved to the mountains waiting for the END to come

[basketballdad]

Also, lets look at your definition of facism and compare to reality.  A leader cult. Have you seen Obama's poll number lately? They are in a free fall. He is being criticized by both wings of his own party as well as by Republicans. If there ever was a leader cult it disappeared in the mix of political debate long ago. Repression of free speech. Are you serious? Let me get this straight, we have people showing up to rallies armed, pictures of the president looking like the joker, people calling him "facist", "socialist", and rallies and protests wherever he goes. If this is repression I would hate to see what wide open debate is? Even though I am disgusted by some of the terms thrown out there by people who have no idea of their historical significance that does not mean that they are being repressed. Look at any extremist web site on either side of the political spectrum and it does not take long to see that free speech is alive and well. If people think being called "un american" is repression then everyone who disagrees with me is "un american". Now I have this whole thread to myself. A little more backbone and a few insults won't quiet anyone.

Exalting the state over individual rights. Now that is interesting. That is exactly what my very liberal friend said George Bush was doing by detaining people at Guatanamo. She said that they were not given Geneva Convention rights, rights under any other sort of international law, no rights under our Constitution, etc. etc. She essentially said that George Bush suspending individual rights for the good of the state. She also got started on how the wire tapping program fit right in there. Now Obama is doing it also. Wow, seems like there are quite a few presidents on the road to facism. As expected lawsuits, while time consuming, eventually settle most of these questions as the Supreme Court decides these issues. As long as the Supreme Court exists under the current guidelines there is always redress for the individual against the government. Just ask those who have been released from prison based on new DNA evidence, prisoners being transferred to the states, etc. Now if you see the judicial system disappearing then I would jump on board the fear train.

Finally, government has grown under every recent president including Reagon and Bush Sr. If that is the criteria then every recent president is facist. If you are saying it has grown more under Obama I won't argue that point but we are talking degrees. Where is the tipping point. I don't think we are there but you may. Finally, while I agree that government is more involved in business I think they should slow down. I think they should get rid of all the subsidies to corporations that the taxpayers are paying for and have a real free market system where the strong surive and the weak perish. I would definitely support that and even go along with less government invovlement in other ways with business.

[HandBall]

Seen busloads of Obama critics showing up at townhalls? The MSM is looking for them, but can't find them. Only the paid supporters of health care, along with the SEIU and ACORN folks are now being bussed in to harass Obama opponents. Two guys with guns don't make a crisis either. Both following the law to the letter. Both well outside the zone protected by Secret Service, and at least the Arizona guy notified local police. But of course, emails showing up from David Axelrod to folks who never sent the WH their email addresses wouldn't chill anyone's speech, or the WH website that was up asking for people to rat-out their fellow Americans by forwarding their critical emails to the WH. Never mind that WH lobbying for legislation is illegal, but since the MSM can only find un-Americans, mobsters and Nazis on the right, and seems unable to connect the LaRouche ultra-leftists to things like the Hitler posters, or the Chicago Palestinian who invented and papered LA with the Obama as Joker poster, I can't imagine why concerned Americans would feel afraid to speak up and oppose the administration. The fact that some have the courage to do it is NOT evidence that repression of free speech is not occurring.

No, American feel perfectly safe to speak up, like the 35 year old mother who expressed her heart-felt concerns to Arlen Spector, then got railroaded by MSNBC who berated by claiming Obama had never supported single-payer - a lie - and then got a night full of death threats on her wired and cell phone, including her husband's cell phone, from people she can't even understand how they got her phone numbers.

As for Obama's growing government within the government, as of a month ago his Czars numbered 32, up from 7 under Bush. Nothing to worry about.
As of July 20, 2009:

1. Afghanistan Czar - Richard Holbrooke
2. AIDS Czar * - Jeffrey Crowley
3. Auto Recovery Czar - Ed Montgomery
4. Border Czar * - Alan Bersin
5. California Water Czar - David J. Hayes
6. Car Czar - Ron Bloom
7. Central Region Czar - Dennis Ross
8. Climate Czar - Todd Stern
9. Domestic Violence Czar - Lynn Rosenthal
10. Drug Czar * - Gil Kerlikowske
11. Economic Czar * - Paul Volcker
12. Energy and Environment Czar - Carol Browner (Socialist)
13. Faith-Based Czar * - Joshua DuBois
14. Government Performance Czar - Jeffrey Zients
15. Great Lakes Czar - Cameron Davis
16. Green Jobs Czar - Van Jones (Communist)
17. Guantanamo Closure Czar - Daniel Fried
18. Health Czar * - Nancy-Ann DeParle
19. Information Czar - Vivek Kundra
20. Intelligence Czar * - Dennis Blair
21. Mideast Peace Czar - George Mitchell
22. Pay Czar - Kenneth R. Feinberg
23. Regulatory Czar - Cass R. Sunstein * (animals should be able to sue, called for ban on hunting)
24. Science Czar - John Holdren ("population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution.")
25. Stimulus Accountability Czar - Earl Devaney
26. Sudan Czar - J. Scott Gration
27. TARP Czar - Herb Allison
28. Technology Czar - Aneesh Chopra
29. Terrorism Czar - John Brennan
30. Urban Affairs Czar - Adolfo Carrion Jr.
31. Weapons Czar - Ashton Carter
32. WMD Policy Czar - Gary Samore
NOTE: positions that existed under previous administrations are indicated with an *.

[westcoast]

Also, lets look at your definition of facism and compare to reality.  A leader cult. Have you seen Obama's poll number lately? They are in a free fall. He is being criticized by both wings of his own party as well as by Republicans. If there ever was a leader cult it disappeared in the mix of political debate long ago. Repression of free speech. Are you serious? Let me get this straight, we have people showing up to rallies armed, pictures of the president looking like the joker, people calling him "facist", "socialist", and rallies and protests wherever he goes. If this is repression I would hate to see what wide open debate is? Even though I am disgusted by some of the terms thrown out there by people who have no idea of their historical significance that does not mean that they are being repressed. Look at any extremist web site on either side of the political spectrum and it does not take long to see that free speech is alive and well. If people think being called "un american" is repression then everyone who disagrees with me is "un american". Now I have this whole thread to myself. A little more backbone and a few insults won't quiet anyone.
 
 

----Here is an interesting note to tie in to this debate----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: andy183@verizon.net
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Sent: 8/21/2009 12:38:50 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time
Subj: Fw: Gun Confiscation is Beginning Senate BilSB-2099/House Bill HR45

 
 
-----
 

 

 

 

 

 

What country IS this?

 

 This is true, see http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/blairholt.asp
  http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/text = Text of H.R.45 as Introduced in House
    Subject: Gun Confiscation is Beginning Senate Bil SB-2099
 

HR45 Gun Owners Watch Out

Concerning the Blair-Holt proposed legislation: Senate Bill SB-
2099 will require us to put on our 2009 1040 federal tax form
all guns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a
tax of $50 per gun...

In November, our president promised he was not going after
our Second Amendment rights. This bill was introduced on Feb. 24.
This bill will become public knowledge 30 days after it is voted
into law. This is an amendment to the Internal Revenue Act of
1986.. This means that the Finance Committee can pass this
without the Senate voting on it at all.

The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate
homepage, http://www.senate.gov/ You can find the bill by doing
a search by the bill number, SB-2099.

You know who to call; I strongly suggest you do.. Please send a
copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/text

Congress is now starting on the firearms confiscation bill. If it
passes, gun owners will become criminals if you don't fully
comply...

It has started.

Very Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced
into the House. This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing &
Record of  Sale Act of 2009.

Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because the
government is trying to fly it under the radar.

To find out about this - go to any government website and type in
HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of
Sales Act of 2009. You will get all the information.

Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle
with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

It is registered -You are fingerprinted -You supply a current
Driver's License -You supply your Social Security # -You will
submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their
choosing -Each update change or ownership through private or
public sale must be reported and costs $25 - Failure to do so
you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are
subject up to a year in jail. - There is a child provision
clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision.
Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.

-They would have the right to come and inspect that you are
storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and
fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison.

If you think this is a joke - go to the website and take your
pick of many options to read this. It is long and lengthy.  But,
more and more people are becoming aware of this. Pass the word
along.  Any hunters in your family pass this along.

This is just a "termite" approach to complete confiscation of
guns and disarming of our society to the point we have no
defense - chip away a little here and there until the goal is
accomplished before anyone realizes it.

This is one to act on whether you own a gun or not. If you take
my gun, only the criminal will have one to use against me. HR 45
only makes me/us less safe..

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.45:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/show

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-45

Please.. copy and send this out to EVERYONE in the  USA , whether
you support the Right to Bear Arms or not.  YOUR rights are next.
Government is taking away our right to choose, as well as the
right to defend ourselves from intruders.

CALL YOUR SENATOR
 
 
 
 
 
 

Exalting the state over individual rights. Now that is interesting. That is exactly what my very liberal friend said George Bush was doing by detaining people at Guatanamo. She said that they were not given Geneva Convention rights, rights under any other sort of international law, no rights under our Constitution, etc. etc. She essentially said that George Bush suspending individual rights for the good of the state. She also got started on how the wire tapping program fit right in there. Now Obama is doing it also. Wow, seems like there are quite a few presidents on the road to facism. As expected lawsuits, while time consuming, eventually settle most of these questions as the Supreme Court decides these issues. As long as the Supreme Court exists under the current guidelines there is always redress for the individual against the government. Just ask those who have been released from prison based on new DNA evidence, prisoners being transferred to the states, etc. Now if you see the judicial system disappearing then I would jump on board the fear train.

Finally, government has grown under every recent president including Reagon and Bush Sr. If that is the criteria then every recent president is facist. If you are saying it has grown more under Obama I won't argue that point but we are talking degrees. Where is the tipping point. I don't think we are there but you may. Finally, while I agree that government is more involved in business I think they should slow down. I think they should get rid of all the subsidies to corporations that the taxpayers are paying for and have a real free market system where the strong surive and the weak perish. I would definitely support that and even go along with less government invovlement in other ways with business.

[basketballdad]

Handball you have not been on the internet very much. It is alive and well with some of the most vile comments and threats you can find anywhere. Throw in anger, rage, threats, and free speech is flowing as much as at any time. Protest, rallies, campouts, continue to flourish. Talk radio is alive and well with some conservative shows having their highest ratings ever. Not sure what law you are refering to not allowing white house to lobby but I am glad Reagan did not know about it since he and Tip O Neil, (democratic speaker of the house during Reagan's term) often shared time chatting about legislation. Oooh a lady got berated the media. Are you kidding me. That is repression. If I get berated by my wife I get scared, if I got berated by my boss I might get angry or worried, but some journalist on t.v. berates me I would fall down laughing.

As far as threats over the phone that seems like it is crime. I suppose MSN is at fault for the stupid criminals of the day. If someone calls threatening me I hang up a couple of times. After that I call the police and let them deal with it. Hysteria aside, free speech is alive and well. Just because you don't like some of it doesn't mean it is not happening. That is what is great anyone can call their leaders and the powerful idiots and that is a right. Take some personal responsiblity I say. Your free speech is only denied if you allow it to be.