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[Black Knight]

Whats funny is now that im participating in the OPL (oregon premier league) im getting to see a different way of doing things. instaed of a group of people picking which league the teams should play, they asked all the clubs to sumbit which league they want their teams in. Assuming there is no arguments it seems they will go with those suggestions, and just have each age group have a different number of teams in each group. Now my first thought was "you will get a ton of teams all wanting to be in the top division" but the funny thing is it seems to be working itself out. Some age groups seem to have 12-14 teams all in division 1, and other age groups have 8 teams and then 14 teams in division 2. I just wonder if maybe thats a better approach? maybe worse? who knows.

[Left Foot]

They played up and won the U15 Xfire Select Cup.

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that we are talking about whether a Select team should move up to what is termed "THE SUPER LEAGUE" in a league that touts it's top division as equal to the old PDL Div 1 teams? Something tells me we are not in Kansas anymore.

your in Washington Lefty, home of BigClubsWin !  where our exclusive - expensive approach to soccer is serving PART of the community........soon to be even less...and proud of it...that's final.

Or it could be that the "Super League" just ain't that super. And I remember when the State was run by a bunch of anti-competitive rec commies. Still don't know what is worse.

[2 CENTS]

They played up and won the U15 Xfire Select Cup.

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that we are talking about whether a Select team should move up to what is termed "THE SUPER LEAGUE" in a league that touts it's top division as equal to the old PDL Div 1 teams? Something tells me we are not in Kansas anymore.

your in Washington Lefty, home of BigClubsWin !  where our exclusive - expensive approach to soccer is serving PART of the community........soon to be even less...and proud of it...that's final.

Or it could be that the "Super League" just ain't that super. And I remember when the State was run by a bunch of anti-competitive rec commies. Still don't know what is worse.

Super, Premier, Elite, 5th div Premier, C & D Premier teams, pay to be Premier, all subjective I suppose.

I don't recall the anti-competitive rec commies, must have been way before Lpt's?

[Left Foot]

They played up and won the U15 Xfire Select Cup.

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that we are talking about whether a Select team should move up to what is termed "THE SUPER LEAGUE" in a league that touts it's top division as equal to the old PDL Div 1 teams? Something tells me we are not in Kansas anymore.

your in Washington Lefty, home of BigClubsWin !  where our exclusive - expensive approach to soccer is serving PART of the community........soon to be even less...and proud of it...that's final.

Or it could be that the "Super League" just ain't that super. And I remember when the State was run by a bunch of anti-competitive rec commies. Still don't know what is worse.

Super, Premier, Elite, 5th div Premier, C & D Premier teams, pay to be Premier, all subjective I suppose.

I don't recall the anti-competitive rec commies, must have been way before Lpt's?

Short memory perhaps trimmed to fit particular opinions. Remember silly useless U-13 leagues? No regionals at U-12 (but U-12s got to pay to send the older kids? Concurrent HS and league seasons for girls?

[tripleplay]

Whats funny is now that im participating in the OPL (oregon premier league) im getting to see a different way of doing things. instaed of a group of people picking which league the teams should play, they asked all the clubs to sumbit which league they want their teams in. Assuming there is no arguments it seems they will go with those suggestions, and just have each age group have a different number of teams in each group. Now my first thought was "you will get a ton of teams all wanting to be in the top division" but the funny thing is it seems to be working itself out. Some age groups seem to have 12-14 teams all in division 1, and other age groups have 8 teams and then 14 teams in division 2. I just wonder if maybe thats a better approach? maybe worse? who knows.

I'd be very wary of a system based entirely on self-selection. There are many examples of this leading to horrible placements for the simple reason that coaches lack objectivity where their teams are concerned. DOCs at the club level might be removed enough to make better judgements, but at least as a baseline you need neutral algorithms being applied to objective data.

Now for something like state cup, it should be a universal principle that a team can always play up. I'm surprised that the USYS has not codified that principle formally into its rules. How can a team be declared a state champion when teams that want to play are excluded from entering the competition? It's symbolic of the lack of respect that USYS accords its own championship - it is no surprise that non-USYS alternatives are gaining traction.

[metz123]

I don't believe there are any limits (at least in Wa) for teams that want to play up in state cup competition. The only limiting factor is that you have to play in a USYS league during the regular season in order to be eligible. There are rules AFA playing in the lower level cups (playing down) but no limits on playing at the highest level.

[Left Foot]

Whats funny is now that im participating in the OPL (oregon premier league) im getting to see a different way of doing things. instaed of a group of people picking which league the teams should play, they asked all the clubs to sumbit which league they want their teams in. Assuming there is no arguments it seems they will go with those suggestions, and just have each age group have a different number of teams in each group. Now my first thought was "you will get a ton of teams all wanting to be in the top division" but the funny thing is it seems to be working itself out. Some age groups seem to have 12-14 teams all in division 1, and other age groups have 8 teams and then 14 teams in division 2. I just wonder if maybe thats a better approach? maybe worse? who knows.

I'd be very wary of a system based entirely on self-selection. There are many examples of this leading to horrible placements for the simple reason that coaches lack objectivity where their teams are concerned. DOCs at the club level might be removed enough to make better judgements, but at least as a baseline you need neutral algorithms being applied to objective data.

Now for something like state cup, it should be a universal principle that a team can always play up. I'm surprised that the USYS has not codified that principle formally into its rules. How can a team be declared a state champion when teams that want to play are excluded from entering the competition? It's symbolic of the lack of respect that USYS accords its own championship - it is no surprise that non-USYS alternatives are gaining traction.

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

[2 CENTS]

They played up and won the U15 Xfire Select Cup.

Does anyone else find it a bit odd that we are talking about whether a Select team should move up to what is termed "THE SUPER LEAGUE" in a league that touts it's top division as equal to the old PDL Div 1 teams? Something tells me we are not in Kansas anymore.

your in Washington Lefty, home of BigClubsWin !  where our exclusive - expensive approach to soccer is serving PART of the community........soon to be even less...and proud of it...that's final.

Or it could be that the "Super League" just ain't that super. And I remember when the State was run by a bunch of anti-competitive rec commies. Still don't know what is worse.

Super, Premier, Elite, 5th div Premier, C & D Premier teams, pay to be Premier, all subjective I suppose.

I don't recall the anti-competitive rec commies, must have been way before Lpt's?

Short memory perhaps trimmed to fit particular opinions. Remember silly useless U-13 leagues? No regionals at U-12 (but U-12s got to pay to send the older kids? Concurrent HS and league seasons for girls?

not sure how any of these (3) issues equates to anti-competitive rec commies. must be one of those feel good name calling thingy's that make you feel better when your wrong or trying to divert attention.

An association and/or league system that suppresses and controls competition sounds more like anti-competitive commies.

[tripleplay]

I don't believe there are any limits (at least in Wa) for teams that want to play up in state cup competition. The only limiting factor is that you have to play in a USYS league during the regular season in order to be eligible. There are rules AFA playing in the lower level cups (playing down) but no limits on playing at the highest level.

You might be right about the older ages (can anyone confirm that any WA team can elect to play champ cup?), but this isn't right at U11. Last year WYS made a number of obviously incorrect placements between challenge-1 and challenge-2.

Actually, a few years ago I know of one U13? team that had no choice of what cup they could play in based on where they played in the regular season. They played in div2 of the state league and had no choice but to play Challenge Cup.

In CalSouth, the ability to play up in Cup is a written policy.

[tripleplay]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

[2 CENTS]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

Yeah sure, I've been a huge advocate of the state. must be your brain processes everything upside down and backwards.



Most US Americans don't have maps.

[Left Foot]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

[tripleplay]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

That's what the promotion/relegation policy based on results is. The heat must be getting to you.

[tripleplay]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

Yeah sure, I've been a huge advocate of the state.

As I recall, you are an association fan. Associations are a state-defined institution controlled by the majority (rec) leaving the select side unrepresented. Even the miniscule amount of self-government that the PDL contained upset you because you wanted the clubs in which competitive players actually play to have zero say in their own fate.

I also recall that you like unsuccessful associations (those with big populations but low soccer membership) more than successful ones. That is consistent with your ideal that the soccer infrastructure exists primarily for the benefit of the adult administrators, with actual soccer playing participants being largely irrelevant. In your case it is probably combined with a class-warfare aspect, since the people in Washington with a successful track record of bringing people into soccer tend to be relatively well off suburbanites, and not the dire poor with whom you claim to identify. However I suspect that identification is just about as genuine as your feigned interest in how Washington's top teams perform nationally! 

[Left Foot]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

That's what the promotion/relegation policy based on results is. The heat must be getting to you.

Well, shucks "policy" that is "usually adhered to" doesn't really sound like a cut and dried neutral algorithm now does it? Is it a mathematical algorithm or just a set of criteria that they "usually" adhere to?

[tripleplay]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

That's what the promotion/relegation policy based on results is. The heat must be getting to you.

Well, shucks "policy" that is "usually adhered to" doesn't really sound like a cut and dried neutral algorithm now does it? Is it a mathematical algorithm or just a set of criteria that they "usually" adhere to?

Who cares? Is your position that any flexibility is bad as a matter of principle? If so, you seem to lack real world experience. Trying to formulate rules to anticipate every single rare possibility would be a waste of time. What you don't grasp, perhaps because of your experience being limited to Washington, is that it is a system designed for a combination of fairness of efficiency, and every team has a voice in the governance.

I won't say there are never controversies because that it is inconsistent with human nature. But it is a more rational and superior method than ever used in Washington to my knowledge.

 

[SoccerFlicks]

can anyone confirm that any WA team can elect to play champ cup?

Several teams from Tynecastle did this (elected to play, I believe) during the past season but many of those teams showed well in their fall leagues. But, even if a team wants in and applies, the app can be rejected, right?  I know of several teams that "played down" when they should have been in the harder cups - they were playing it safe, wanted to win - this is just as as bad as not being good enough in a harder cup.  If statute insist teams are seeded into the cups you run the risk of political issues.  If you allow teams to play where they want to the balance of skill will be off.  So, what's left to do?

[Left Foot]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

That's what the promotion/relegation policy based on results is. The heat must be getting to you.

Well, shucks "policy" that is "usually adhered to" doesn't really sound like a cut and dried neutral algorithm now does it? Is it a mathematical algorithm or just a set of criteria that they "usually" adhere to?

Who cares? Is your position that any flexibility is bad as a matter of principle? If so, you seem to lack real world experience. Trying to formulate rules to anticipate every single rare possibility would be a waste of time. What you don't grasp, perhaps because of your experience being limited to Washington, is that it is a system designed for a combination of fairness of efficiency, and every team has a voice in the governance.

I won't say there are never controversies because that it is inconsistent with human nature. But it is a more rational and superior method than ever used in Washington to my knowledge.

 

Shoot no! But that isn't a neutral algorithm. Just tighten up your language a little will ya'? That was one of the issues with LPTs, IMHO. The slow clunky path to a higher level of play---or vice versa.

[tripleplay]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

That's what the promotion/relegation policy based on results is. The heat must be getting to you.

Well, shucks "policy" that is "usually adhered to" doesn't really sound like a cut and dried neutral algorithm now does it? Is it a mathematical algorithm or just a set of criteria that they "usually" adhere to?

Who cares? Is your position that any flexibility is bad as a matter of principle? If so, you seem to lack real world experience. Trying to formulate rules to anticipate every single rare possibility would be a waste of time. What you don't grasp, perhaps because of your experience being limited to Washington, is that it is a system designed for a combination of fairness of efficiency, and every team has a voice in the governance.

I won't say there are never controversies because that it is inconsistent with human nature. But it is a more rational and superior method than ever used in Washington to my knowledge.

 

Shoot no! But that isn't a neutral algorithm. Just tighten up your language a little will ya'? That was one of the issues with LPTs, IMHO. The slow clunky path to a higher level of play---or vice versa.

Sorry, it is your reading skills that are deficient. My exact words were  "but at least as a baseline you need neutral algorithms being applied to objective data" as an alternate to the concept of pure self-selection. The main objection to LPTs is that it was the dictatorial organization imposing an inefficient and unnecessary mandatory tournament on teams - not that there is something wrong with having an established policy for team placement.


As far as the cup issue, every team should have a right to play up, not simply a right to apply to play up. I'm not saying the state should encourage (or make it easy for) rec teams to play the championship cup, but as a matter of principle the championship cup should be open if it wants to be a true championship. Of course, there have to be restrictions on playing down in order to make the lower cups meaningful. Well, actually I kind of like the idea of there being one tournament that everybody plays and which ranks every team from 1 to whatever. That format is used in other activities, and maybe some variants are used in soccer tournaments as well.

[Left Foot]

Which neutral algorithm does the Coast League use in SoCal?

There is a written policy of promotion/relegation that is usually adhered to quite closely at the older ages, but there is the ability for some flexibility.

At the earliest ages, and remember CSL starts at U9 with local leagues, I think it is less formal and I'd guess there is more self-selection. In addition to league play, there is also league cup which gives teams from different geographic locales (within LA) and playing different tiers a chance to face off. So, there is  a lot of good data and that data is used sensibly - unlike in Washington where our distaste for scorekeeping means we often throw teams into ridiculously mismatched situations and then rationalize that doing so is a wonderful learning experience. In short, by U11 nearly everyone in LA gets local, like competition. That's a pipe dream in Washington as long as we have the 2 CENTS etc. doing everything in their power to preserve the kingmaking role of the WYS politicians, and nobody representing competitive players.

So no neutral algorithm then?

That's what the promotion/relegation policy based on results is. The heat must be getting to you.

Well, shucks "policy" that is "usually adhered to" doesn't really sound like a cut and dried neutral algorithm now does it? Is it a mathematical algorithm or just a set of criteria that they "usually" adhere to?

Who cares? Is your position that any flexibility is bad as a matter of principle? If so, you seem to lack real world experience. Trying to formulate rules to anticipate every single rare possibility would be a waste of time. What you don't grasp, perhaps because of your experience being limited to Washington, is that it is a system designed for a combination of fairness of efficiency, and every team has a voice in the governance.

I won't say there are never controversies because that it is inconsistent with human nature. But it is a more rational and superior method than ever used in Washington to my knowledge.

 

Shoot no! But that isn't a neutral algorithm. Just tighten up your language a little will ya'? That was one of the issues with LPTs, IMHO. The slow clunky path to a higher level of play---or vice versa.

Sorry, it is your reading skills that are deficient. My exact words were  "but at least as a baseline you need neutral algorithms being applied to objective data" as an alternate to the concept of pure self-selection. The main objection to LPTs is that it was the dictatorial organization imposing an inefficient and unnecessary mandatory tournament on teams - not that there is something wrong with having an established policy for team placement.


As far as the cup issue, every team should have a right to play up, not simply a right to apply to play up. I'm not saying the state should encourage (or make it easy for) rec teams to play the championship cup, but as a matter of principle the championship cup should be open if it wants to be a true championship. Of course, there have to be restrictions on playing down in order to make the lower cups meaningful. Well, actually I kind of like the idea of there being one tournament that everybody plays and which ranks every team from 1 to whatever. That format is used in other activities, and maybe some variants are used in soccer tournaments as well.

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

[metz123]

Again. The state has no hard and fast rules that prevent teams from playing in the State Championship Cup other than they be part of a WSYS league. U11 has no State Championship Cup, that why they call it Challenge 1 and Challenge 2. The rules around Championship Cup don't apply. Any team can submit an entry to play in the Championship Cup. I have yet to hear 1st hand of a team that applied to Championship Cup and wasn't allowed in. Anecdotal statements need not pass go.

I'm sure the state reserves the right to reject applications, that's part of the flexibility you think is so grand, isn't it? However, I have yet to get a direct report of any team applying for the Championship Cup (the big kahuna) and not getting in.

[NKSoccerFan]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

[Left Foot]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

You are correct. Just trying to find out what 3play means.

[2 CENTS]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

You are correct. Just trying to find out what 3play means.

Good luck 

[tripleplay]

I don't believe there are any limits (at least in Wa) for teams that want to play up in state cup competition. The only limiting factor is that you have to play in a USYS league during the regular season in order to be eligible. There are rules AFA playing in the lower level cups (playing down) but no limits on playing at the highest level.

The example I gave above reflected the rules at that time - i.e. a certain team could not play Commissioners or Champion, only Challenge. Not saying that those teams were misplaced - they weren't. And I'm not sure why you make a big distinction about U11 - Challenge 1 is perceived by all to be the championship. Last year, WYS denied teams the opportunity to play in it. (btw, they also denied teams that weren't "true" U11, inventing their own age category in the process!)

To make the point you need to supply is the WA equivalent of the words easily found on the Ca site:

"All Teams may always "Play Up" "
"Teams may not "Play Down" "

To argue that it has not been a huge practical problem in Wa, as you are, misses my argument.

[tripleplay]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

Bingo. And the algorithm used by CSL does contain some math because the assessment of prior season records is mathematical.

[Left Foot]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

Bingo. And the algorithm used by CSL does contain some math because the assessment of prior season records is mathematical.

How about a link?

[Left Foot]

3Play, is this it? (http://www.coastsoccer.com/CSL-Brackets-2009.pdf)

The Board of Directors has the absolute discretion to bracket teams applying for admittance into Coast Soccer
League in any manner that, in the opinion of the Board, will provide the best competition and meet the objectives of
the league.
The Board of Directors will utilize the following guidelines in bracketing teams. These guidelines are advisory only,
and the Board of Directors is not required to follow them if, in the opinion of the Board, adherence to the guidelines
in a particular case will not provide the best competition or meet the objectives of the league. These guidelines do
not apply to the CSL Premier League. As an "Invitational League", the CSL Premier League sets its' own guidelines
in order to achieve the most competitive bracketing.
1. Returning teams will be given priority in admittance into the league. A returning team means a team which played
the prior season in Coast Soccer League and has a minimum of seven (7) returning players [Six (6) for U9-U10],
a returning coach with an administrator's pass, and is playing or applied to play out of the same club. A returning
player means a player who has a valid player pass for that team and played a minimum of FIVE league and/or
league cup games with that team during the prior season. The required number of returning players MUST be
submitted on the team application by May 15.
2. Premier teams from other leagues may be given priority in admittance into the league over new teams. A Premier
team from another league means a "gold-level" team that played in another competitive league the prior season
and which in all respects qualifies as a returning team.
3. New teams will be admitted into the league as space permits; however, CSL reserves the right to deny
admittance to New Teams.
4. Returning teams, which finished in 1st will be promoted. 2nd and 3rd place teams from the prior season, MAY be
considered for promotion (e.g., from silver elite to gold). Said teams will only be considered for promotion in the
event of a spot being available and only after all 1st place teams have been promoted. A team MAY, at the sole
discretion of the CSL Board of Directors, be promoted more than one bracket (e.g., from bronze to gold).
Returning teams, which finished in 5th place or below the prior season, WILL be considered for relegation (e.g.,
gold to silver elite). A team MAY be relegated more than one bracket (e.g., gold to bronze).
5. It is the intent of the Board of Directors to promote all 1st place bracket teams) and to relegate at least two teams
out of each bracket from the prior season; however, the Board may, in its discretion, refuse to promote or relegate
teams out of a particular bracket if, in the opinion of the Board, such promotion or relegation will not provide the
best competition or meet the objectives of the league.
6. A premier team from another league may be bracketed in gold, silver elite or silver if in the opinion of the Board
such bracketing will provide the best competition and meet the object of the league.

[EWSoccer64]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

You are correct. Just trying to find out what 3play means.

Try taking a massive amount of mind altering drugs..............

[Left Foot]

Ok. I take an algorithm to be a mathematical formula. Do you? AND, you don't need to sell me on a flexible placement system with objective criteria and room for outlier situations.

Not to butt in on a fine discussion, but algorithm's aren't limited to mathmatics or computer science.  An algorithm is just a set of well-defined instructions for completing a task.

You are correct. Just trying to find out what 3play means.

Try taking a massive amount of mind altering drugs..............

Well, if what I quoted above counts as a "neutral algorithm", you could be right. Might not be the language 3play is looking at though because there is no link.