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[Islander]

http://www.wsysa.com/Tournaments/StateCupTournaments/tabid/380/language/en-US/Default.aspx

New names.

[metz123]

Wow, talk about over complications. They changed more than just the names - regional pools, seeding based on the unrevealed CAP formula, compressing the schedule, radically changing the dates, requiring unseeded teams to run through some sort of gauntlet against higher ranked teams in order to "play-in" to a higher cup than their CAP says they belong in.

The cup formerly know as the commissioners now starts in early December instead of January (excuse me, I'm still playing league games in early december unless the objective is to shorten the district schedule down to 10 games, driving more players into premier). And exactly how do you play into the Challenge cup for GHS ages in early April? What if you don't Play-in? The lower seeded cup you drop to (founders cup), has been finished for 2 months.

The whole thing smells......of a committee.......run by RCL premier clubs to further their stranglehold on Washington state and limit the choices of non RCL clubs.

[tripleplay]

Wow, talk about over complications. They changed more than just the names - regional pools, seeding based on the unrevealed CAP formula, compressing the schedule, radically changing the dates, requiring unseeded teams to run through some sort of gauntlet against higher ranked teams in order to "play-in" to a higher cup than their CAP says they belong in.

The cup formerly know as the commissioners now starts in early December instead of January (excuse me, I'm still playing league games in early december unless the objective is to shorten the district schedule down to 10 games, driving more players into premier). And exactly how do you play into the Challenge cup for GHS ages in early April? What if you don't Play-in? The lower seeded cup you drop to (founders cup), has been finished for 2 months.

The whole thing smells......of a committee.......run by RCL premier clubs to further their stranglehold on Washington state and limit the choices of non RCL clubs.

metz123,  why do you blame RCL clubs for WYS stupidity?

I would say that most of the proposals are sensible in theory, but the details seem flawed. For example, seeding is a good idea in theory, but the CAP formula is grossly inaccurate so is inappropriate as a seeding tool.

The idea of "playing-in" is also a sound one, because you don't want to make it easy for rec teams playing in the Championship. But, in this proposal, it sounds as if any team not in the top eight will need to "play-in" to the Championship cup. That's ludicrous. A team that has played 10-20 games and is in 9th place shouldn't have their cup placement decided by one game.

The regionalization of early rounds could also be beneficial, but I suspect that in practice it will amount to WYS doling out late round political spots to D5 and D6.

But compressing the time scale of the tournament is a good thing. The WA state cup timetable has been a joke compared to other states, whose state cups are typically real tournaments, not a mini-season.

[NKSoccerFan]

But compressing the time scale of the tournament is a good thing. The WA state cup timetable has been a joke compared to other states, whose state cups are typically real tournaments, not a mini-season.

Not even a mini-season - with cup play from Dec - May, it is longer than the regular season.

[tripleplay]

But compressing the time scale of the tournament is a good thing. The WA state cup timetable has been a joke compared to other states, whose state cups are typically real tournaments, not a mini-season.

Not even a mini-season - with cup play from Dec - May, it is longer than the regular season.

OK. Good point.

What I don't understand is that how the rest of the world can have so many more teams than we do, yet complete their Cup so much more quickly.

For example, GU12 top cup: 26 teams, 3 days of bracket and a round of 16 (2 weekends), Quarters, semis, finals (1 weekend)
Another example, GU11 top cup: 58 teams, 3 days of bracket and a round of 32 (2 weekends), round of 16, quarters, semis, finals (1 weekend)
Anyone can "play up", all games on neutral fields, throw in an extra weekend for weather.

Let's make our state cup about soccer!



 

[metz123]

If you are compressing the cup schedule why start founders cup in December, why hold state and challenge cups mnths before regionals?

If you look at the actual cup calendar they are compressing the early elimination phase. Not the entire schedule. It's just leaving bigger gaps between seasons for more teams. Comressing is fine but compress the whole thing not just the early rounds.

[metz123]

The idea of "playing-in" is also a sound one, because you don't want to make it easy for rec teams playing in the Championship. But, in this proposal, it sounds as if any team not in the top eight will need to "play-in" to the Championship cup. That's ludicrous. A team that has played 10-20 games and is in 9th place shouldn't have their cup placement decided by one game.

I don't understand the thoughts around making it "difficult" for a rec team to play in Championship cup. First of all, in reality, it never happens. You're solving a problem that doesn't exist. A few teams in each division, each year chose to challenge themselves by playing "up" a single cup level. Never does a team attempt to jump up several levels of play to get slaughtered in the state cup. Coaches and clubs aren't that stupid. I have yet to see a team opt to play up in a state cup that didn't know exactly what they were doing and relish the challenge. This new system seems like an inept way to limit that for no explained reason.

I thought you were a fan of the let anybody sign up for the Championship cup? What's the point of playing in? Most of the teams in this state below the top 10 do their best to try and play down because they'd rather win the challenge cup and play in that ridiculous 2nd tier regional tournament.

[tripleplay]

The idea of "playing-in" is also a sound one, because you don't want to make it easy for rec teams playing in the Championship. But, in this proposal, it sounds as if any team not in the top eight will need to "play-in" to the Championship cup. That's ludicrous. A team that has played 10-20 games and is in 9th place shouldn't have their cup placement decided by one game.

I don't understand the thoughts around making it "difficult" for a rec team to play in Championship cup. First of all, in reality, it never happens. You're solving a problem that doesn't exist. A few teams in each division, each year chose to challenge themselves by playing "up" a single cup level. Never does a team attempt to jump up several levels of play to get slaughtered in the state cup. Coaches and clubs aren't that stupid. I have yet to see a team opt to play up in a state cup that didn't know exactly what they were doing and relish the challenge. This new system seems like an inept way to limit that for no explained reason.

I thought you were a fan of the let anybody sign up for the Championship cup? What's the point of playing in? Most of the teams in this state below the top 10 do their best to try and play down because they'd rather win the challenge cup and play in that ridiculous 2nd tier regional tournament.

I agree with everything you write. I was addressing a theoretical concern - say, for the sake of argument, you had 100 rec teams sign up for the Championship cup. That could mess up the Championship cup.  But for team #9 to have to "play-in" to a cup that is the top 20 or 30? That's just stupidity.

I think the "reason" that WYS officials put in these rules that they get to administer is also pretty obvious. It's what makes *them* most important. The very fact that they make a big deal of the individual in charge of the cup shows how very, very screwed up the priorities of WYS are.

I also agree that the cup calendar should be compressed. For most teams, cup should be over in two adjacent weekends. The top 4, 8, 16 would have another weekend, possibly with an extra weekend built in for weather etc. (This assumes that the only purpose of state cup is to identify one winner. If you want to place all teams, an idea which I like, everyone would have to play 3 weekends.)

The issue of when to hold the finals is a bit more complex. By tradition, we start tryouts after cup is done. Delay cup means you delay tryouts which means putting WA at a disadvantage compared to other states. I think there is a good case for not regulating tryouts but there are legitimate pros and cons.

[NKSoccerFan]

The issue of when to hold the finals is a bit more complex. By tradition, we start tryouts after cup is done. Delay cup means you delay tryouts which means putting WA at a disadvantage compared to other states. I think there is a good case for not regulating tryouts but there are legitimate pros and cons.

Not only that, nobody gets to have tryouts while the cups are going on.  As I understand it, the idea is so that the highest level teams wouldn't miss out on players because they are still busy with cups.  But how many players in an age does that really affect?  1/100? Less?

Don't see why the majority has to wait around twiddling our thumbs while a few teams finish playing.

[tripleplay]

The issue of when to hold the finals is a bit more complex. By tradition, we start tryouts after cup is done. Delay cup means you delay tryouts which means putting WA at a disadvantage compared to other states. I think there is a good case for not regulating tryouts but there are legitimate pros and cons.

Not only that, nobody gets to have tryouts while the cups are going on.  As I understand it, the idea is so that the highest level teams wouldn't miss out on players because they are still busy with cups.  But how many players in an age does that really affect?  1/100? Less?

Don't see why the majority has to wait around twiddling our thumbs while a few teams finish playing.

One of the features of the way we do tryouts now is that it compresses the whole process to a few weeks. States or sports where they don't do that usually have a process that starts very early but it can take months to finish. But having weaker clubs holding tryouts before stronger clubs, which is what you seem to favor, doesn't make much sense regardless of the rules.

[NKSoccerFan]

The issue of when to hold the finals is a bit more complex. By tradition, we start tryouts after cup is done. Delay cup means you delay tryouts which means putting WA at a disadvantage compared to other states. I think there is a good case for not regulating tryouts but there are legitimate pros and cons.

Not only that, nobody gets to have tryouts while the cups are going on.  As I understand it, the idea is so that the highest level teams wouldn't miss out on players because they are still busy with cups.  But how many players in an age does that really affect?  1/100? Less?

Don't see why the majority has to wait around twiddling our thumbs while a few teams finish playing.

One of the features of the way we do tryouts now is that it compresses the whole process to a few weeks. States or sports where they don't do that usually have a process that starts very early but it can take months to finish. But having weaker clubs holding tryouts before stronger clubs, which is what you seem to favor, doesn't make much sense regardless of the rules.

Us select clubs aren't competing for the same players as premier.  We are however, competing with other sports, namely baseball.  A lot of parents sign their kids up for only one sport at a time.  When tryout were in March, soccer came first, now that they're in May baseball comes first. 

The premier clubs can have tryouts anytime they want.  If they're worried about select clubs taking all the good players, than they can schedule their tryouts earlier.

[NKSoccerFan]

The issue of when to hold the finals is a bit more complex. By tradition, we start tryouts after cup is done. Delay cup means you delay tryouts which means putting WA at a disadvantage compared to other states. I think there is a good case for not regulating tryouts but there are legitimate pros and cons.

Not only that, nobody gets to have tryouts while the cups are going on.  As I understand it, the idea is so that the highest level teams wouldn't miss out on players because they are still busy with cups.  But how many players in an age does that really affect?  1/100? Less?

Don't see why the majority has to wait around twiddling our thumbs while a few teams finish playing.

One of the features of the way we do tryouts now is that it compresses the whole process to a few weeks. States or sports where they don't do that usually have a process that starts very early but it can take months to finish. But having weaker clubs holding tryouts before stronger clubs, which is what you seem to favor, doesn't make much sense regardless of the rules.

Oh, and I'm fine with the tryouts being compressed to a few weeks.  Although that makes it tough for the administrators when they are trying to get access to fields in what is considered to be the soccer "off-season". 

And I'll admit I am biased.  Our club had a nice tournament every Memorial Day Weekend for the last 25 years.  However, the state decided that they would much rather be getting the revenue from teams playing in THEIR cups, and compress the summer tournament season by pushing tryouts into May.  So, nearly all the May & June tournaments have low turnouts, changed weekends or cancelled.   Who is hurt the most?  Not Starfire with seemingly a tournament every weekend. Established August tournaments such as bigfoot only benefit.  No, it is the small clubs, who depend on the tournament revenue to keep costs affordable.