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[EWDOC]

EW64

OK, I'm ready to bang my head on the wall.  You're telling me, that if a kid tries out for a competitive team and doesn't make it and therefore is not on a team at all, they can not play on a recreational team?  Please tell me you're making this up, pretty please...

[Soccer Wonk]

I remember EW posting on this one. I think the nut of the issue is that post-tryout, the players who weren't selected were then  "placed" on a recreational team, rather than falling back into the club pool for placement by the registrars. If however, these players were essentially the entire player pool, it seems whacked.

[EWSoccer64]

EW64

OK, I'm ready to bang my head on the wall.  You're telling me, that if a kid tries out for a competitive team and doesn't make it and therefore is not on a team at all, they can not play on a recreational team?  Please tell me you're making this up, pretty please...

It has been the policy of 3Rivers that players who try out for their Premier and Select teams, who are not placed upon one of those teams, cannot be formed into a "recreational team", since they had gone through a tryout process.

Yes, I have beaten my head upon this wall more than once over the years.
There have been occassions when there are enough kids for 5-6 teams in an age group.  Since there is no "rec" program for them, and until last year no alternative club, they all tryout for 3Rivers.   Teams are then formed up A,B,C,D,E,F etc. based upon tryout results.  When there is a large group trying out, the club is unprepared for them, without plans or coaches beyond the top teams.

When queried about the situation, the association registrar (whom I believe serves the same function for the club) states that the kids on the bottom cannot go to a rec team, no rec team can accept them because they went to a tryout and thus are select players.   The association has the power to make/allow rec teams outside of 3Rivers, it is written into their bylaws.

Eventually, the club digs up a warm body to be the coach - sometimes not until just before the start of the fall season - and calls them select.  The kids get thrown into the select schedule and after doing little or nothing in the preseason/summer.  The results are what you would expect, but since the "select" team never survives more than that one year (the retention rate is also what you would expect), oila, problem solved.  In the mean time, of course, 3Rivers collects all those lovely player fees and has a higher reported number of "competitive" players and fees.  But they have not really ever wanted the "bottom kids" and to describe how they ae treated once they come in as "benign neglect" would be charitable.

But the reason that nothing is done, and no teams are formed up for these kids left over - even when 3Rivers does not form up a team for them - is that the (local?) ruling is that once kids go through a select tryout (even if they fail) they cannot be placed upon a rec team.  And by instructing every kid who registers to go to tryouts, the problem is solved.

[Soccer Wonk]

These kids are not "select players" under any definition, even though this poster believes there is no such thing, until they have been OFFERED, ACCEPTED and REGISTERED FOR a spot on a "select team" -- that is, a team for which players were selected by ability.

[footie fan]

This may be the thread with the largest turn from it's title.

It's always seemed pretty clear to me.

Players are players: there is no "select player", "premier player", "rec player".  If there is any distinction it is between professional and amateur, and that one is pretty simple.

Teams are either "select" or "recreational".   The distinguishing factor is in how the team was formed.  If the formation is not random assignment, then the team is "select".   The level of play, or competitiveness, has nothing to do with the definition.

I cannot understand how a player, who attended a tryout, but wasn't selected, can't go back into the pool for a recreational team.   Furthermore, I can't understand how a player, who went to a tryout, and was selected, but chose not to participate, can't go back to a recreational pool/team.

Is it really that hard?

[Soccer Wonk]

It happens when people read these various by-laws, rules and policies not for what they mean, but for what they WANT them to mean.

[EWSoccer64]

Yes, Footie Fan, around here, it is really that hard!   Is it any wonder that the population has doubled but the numbers in the local association have dropped over the last 15 years?

And Soccerwonk, I have been pressed by two different parties in the last week to explain how the USCS and WSYSA rules interact, conflict, which takes precedence, etc. etc. and have flatly refused to ever venture any opinion on such.   It seems that only lawyers and accountants, those people who live with an eye for detail and a love of minutae, can figure those out!  Well them and Futsal, the UberRuleMeister.

But to get the subject back on track, just what are the numbers of players who are playing in the 2010-11 year for USCS?   In this state, they would all be classified as "competitive" players since they are on "Select" teams, right?   How does that compare to the the WSYSA RCL player numbers and to the WSYSA competitive non-rcl player numbers?
So I am not counting the Spokane Youth Sports Authority/Assocation USCS little kids in these numbers, but is there another USCS rec program like that in the state?
  Someone quoted to me that they were told by someone at the state level that the USCS were only 5% of the state numbers.  I find that difficult to believe unless all the dual registered players were counted only as state players and all the little kids (who outnumber the competitive players by a significant amount anyway) were counted on the State's ledgersheet.

[Futsal]

This may be the thread with the largest turn from it's title.

It's always seemed pretty clear to me.

Players are players: there is no "select player", "premier player", "rec player".  If there is any distinction it is between professional and amateur, and that one is pretty simple.

Teams are either "select" or "recreational".   The distinguishing factor is in how the team was formed.  If the formation is not random assignment, then the team is "select".   The level of play, or competitiveness, has nothing to do with the definition.

I cannot understand how a player, who attended a tryout, but wasn't selected, can't go back into the pool for a recreational team.   Furthermore, I can't understand how a player, who went to a tryout, and was selected, but chose not to participate, can't go back to a recreational pool/team.

Is it really that hard?

This is a reasonable description of player status.

[NKSoccerFan]

Teams are either "select" or "recreational".   The distinguishing factor is in how the team was formed.  If the formation is not random assignment, then the team is "select".   The level of play, or competitiveness, has nothing to do with the definition.

I would word it as "Select" teams are formed via a tryout process, whereas recreational teams are not. 

[Soccer Wonk]

From the US Youth Soccer Policy on Players and Playing Rules:

(16) “recreational league” means an intraclub league in which—
(A) the use of tryouts, invitations, recruiting, or any similar process to roster players to any team on the basis of talent or ability is prohibited;
(B) the club administering the league accepts as participants in the league any eligible youths (subject to reasonable terms on registration);
(C) a system or rostering players is used to establish a fair or balanced distribution of playing talent among all teams participating; and
(D) league rules require that each player must play at least one-half of each game except for reasons of injury, illness, or discipline.

(19) “recreational team” means a team that participates in a recreational league.

[EWSoccer64]

OK, now does one of A-D have to apply or do all 4?

From the US Youth Soccer Policy on Players and Playing Rules:

(16) “recreational league” means an intraclub league in which—
(A) the use of tryouts, invitations, recruiting, or any similar process to roster players to any team on the basis of talent or ability is prohibited;
(B) the club administering the league accepts as participants in the league any eligible youths (subject to reasonable terms on registration);
(C) a system or rostering players is used to establish a fair or balanced distribution of playing talent among all teams participating; and
(D) league rules require that each player must play at least one-half of each game except for reasons of injury, illness, or discipline.

(19) “recreational team” means a team that participates in a recreational league.

[wit]

Wow.. we do seem to have gone off thread.. but it is interesting nevertheless.

Definitions of what players actually are, varies from State to State. If you look at the US Youth State Associations some charge a single fee and others charge a tiered base system depending on classification.  Personally I hate the single fee approach because it should be priced based on the upkeep (i.e competitive players cause 75% of the workload and should be priced as such) but thats a whole new thread.

Most of the States have two simple levels

Competitive (Sometimes called Select depending on where you live)
Recreational

Some Clubs have their own definitions also... Competitive, then Select, then Rec so Select is a middle tier. Some even have a "classic" designation.

Ironically it outlines one of the major flaws of youth soccer, which is different states, clubs, organizations do their own thing so people have no clue what to call players or get tied up in the legale-eese of it all.

If you check  the US Youth Soccer Player Rules  http://www.usyouthsoccer.org/assets/administrators/Players_and_Playing_Rules_Policy_9-12-09.pdf
you will see no less than 17 definitions of teams and leagues but no real mention of a single player.

Again I can only speak to  my experiences in Idaho but it is very simple... if you compete for a spot in a tryout AND YOU ARE EXCEPTED then you are a competititve player, however if you do tryout AND DO NOT MAKE IT then you may be part of a recreational team. There are also players that play competetive soccer on a club based competitive team that also play with their friends in club based recreational leagues....

[Soccer Wonk]

Here's what it says on top of the whole "definitions" section in the USYS policy:

Section 3. The following definitions are suggested for use by State Associations to facilitate communication and understanding among them:

So the USYS definition of rec doesn't really have any kind of legal oomph behind it.

Here's what WYS says under its rules for the President's Cup recreational tournament:
(b) This cup will be open to recreational teams that play in a recreational league, A “recreational league is defined as any league “interclub or intraclub” where the use of tryouts, invitations, recruiting or any like process to roster players selectively on the basis of talent or ability is prohibited. Individual Associations will determine whether their teams fit the “recreational league” classification.

So in other words, it looks like it's all up to the local associations. Which is why everyone probably has a different idea of what rec means, based on local practices.

[EWSoccer64]

Just to be perfectly insane about this. -
Under all the definitions presented, a case can be made that players are (negetively) selected by scoring so low at tryouts that they are placed not on a select or premier/RCL team, but on another team/pool.   That is, they tried out and were selected to be in this bottom pool of kids, and any team formed up by that makes it a select team.
NO - I DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THIS LINE OF REASONING.   But I know that some do.

[tripleplay]

Here's what it says on top of the whole "definitions" section in the USYS policy:

Section 3. The following definitions are suggested for use by State Associations to facilitate communication and understanding among them:

So the USYS definition of rec doesn't really have any kind of legal oomph behind it.

Here's what WYS says under its rules for the President's Cup recreational tournament:
(b) This cup will be open to recreational teams that play in a recreational league, A “recreational league is defined as any league “interclub or intraclub” where the use of tryouts, invitations, recruiting or any like process to roster players selectively on the basis of talent or ability is prohibited. Individual Associations will determine whether their teams fit the “recreational league” classification.

So in other words, it looks like it's all up to the local associations. Which is why everyone probably has a different idea of what rec means, based on local practices.

I think there is a good case for abolishing the "rec" designation. Just call it "soccer". Tiering of some sort makes sense at every age, and the rec/select dichotomy just makes those in rec feel inferior when it kicks in. The key is that everyone gets to play somewhere, making efforts to make them happy. Who does it benefit to have random teams or teams with extremes of ability? People who are too lazy to come up with better teams, that's who.

[tripleplay]

From the US Youth Soccer Policy on Players and Playing Rules:

(16) “recreational league” means an intraclub league in which—

Does this mean that all interclub leagues are, by definition, not "recreational leagues"?