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[Left Foot]

Say that I am a Club DOC or maybe even President of a club and decide to start a for-profit league on the side. Then, I direct my club's teams to participate in my for-profit league. Would I be acting ethically? It would seem like I would be facing a clear conflict of interest.

Was the PDL for-profit? 

Other situations like this anyone? Could this happen?

[vusa92blue]

NWCL???

Let's see the books!

[Left Foot]

Say that I am a Club DOC or maybe even President of a club and decide to start a for-profit league on the side. Then, I direct my club's teams to participate in my for-profit league. Would I be acting ethically? It would seem like I would be facing a clear conflict of interest.

Was the PDL for-profit?  

Other situations like this anyone? Could this happen?

And, as I think about it, can a non-profit org keep it's non-profit status if it is just a front to run a for profit tie-in business?

The link below would seem to suggest so:
http://www.nonprofitissues.com/public/features/point/443.php

Would/does your club allow this?

[Rock27]

Isn't US Club a for-profit? They just don't talk about it.

[Soccer Wonk]

Say that I am a Club DOC or maybe even President of a club and decide to start a for-profit league on the side. Then, I direct my club's teams to participate in my for-profit league. Would I be acting ethically? It would seem like I would be facing a clear conflict of interest.

Just focusing on the legal and not the moral question, it's a conflict of interest if in violation of the club's conflict of interest policy. Presuming the club is a 501C(3) non-profit, In the declarations on IRS Form 990, the club should be able to declare that it does have such a policy. The bare minimum is that if such conflict exists it must be disclosed. This applies to officers, members of the board of directors and key employees.

Was the PDL for-profit?  

No, it was an inter-district league operating technically under the umbrella of district IV and I believe that's where the books were kept.

Other situations like this anyone? Could this happen?

Apparently so.

[Soccer Wonk]

Isn't US Club a for-profit? They just don't talk about it.

The public-facing information on the US Club Web site says it's a non-profit corporation and (IMO) there's no reason to question that. Thought it was based in South Carolina, but doesn't appear to be incorporated there. (Interestingly enough, there is a corporation called US Club Soccer Properties, Inc. that is a for-profit registered there, but there could be perfectly legit explanations for that.) US Club Soccer doesn't turn up as a tax-exempt 501c(3) per the IRS.

This doesn't necessarily mean that US Club's member clubs and leagues are also legally constituted or incorporated as non-profits. Just that the parent organization claims to be, and mostly likely is.

 

[Soccer Wonk]

...

[Left Foot]

Hmmm, interesting...
Found this link which lists a for profit corporation called Northwest Champions L.L.C.. Is someone named Greg Ion or Charlie Dent affiliated with any non-profit clubs? If this would be an issue, how would a non-profit club operating as a front for a for profit affect its association? How about a state non-profit that allowed it's clubs to operate in this way?

http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=603009142

Just go to search_detail and type in Northwest Champions L.L.C.

 

[EWSoccer64]

Isn't US Club a for-profit? They just don't talk about it.

The public-facing information on the US Club Web site says it's a non-profit corporation and (IMO) there's no reason to question that. Thought it was based in South Carolina, but doesn't appear to be incorporated there. (Interestingly enough, there is a corporation called US Club Soccer Properties, Inc. that is a for-profit registered there, but there could be perfectly legit explanations for that.) US Club Soccer doesn't turn up as a tax-exempt 501c(3) per the IRS.

This doesn't necessarily mean that US Club's member clubs and leagues are also legally constituted or incorporated as non-profits. Just that the parent organization claims to be, and mostly likely is.

 

That's what I like about you, SW, you give your opposition the benefit of the doubt while outlining the facts.   Why, a good conspiracy theorist - such as people I know - could string together the facts you have turned up and make it look like George Soros is behind USCS, profiting on it while shorting USSF stock.  And funding the TP Pages too boot, to make sure it happens so that his shorts turn massive profits.

[Left Foot]

Here is a link to the same info for the PSPL. It is a non-profit:
http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602991105

Seriously though, with all the blah, blah blah about "it's for the kids", bashing the RCL, PSPL and every little niggling thing, and going on about paid coaches and DOCs, no one has an opinion about this? There is an argument that this sort of thing could be seen as the crassest form of self-dealing to profit off of kids. Maybe not?

What is that Nirvana song "Smells Like Hypocrite Spirit"........

[Old Dog]

Here is a link to the same info for the PSPL. It is a non-profit:
http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602991105

Seriously though, with all the blah, blah blah about "it's for the kids", bashing the RCL, PSPL and every little niggling thing, and going on about paid coaches and DOCs, no one has an opinion about this? There is an argument that this sort of thing could be seen as the crassest form of self-dealing to profit off of kids. Maybe not?

What is that Nirvana song "Smells Like Hypocrite Spirit"........

Or, it could be seen as you have an ax to grind and no one else is buying in.

[Left Foot]

Here is a link to the same info for the PSPL. It is a non-profit:
http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602991105

Seriously though, with all the blah, blah blah about "it's for the kids", bashing the RCL, PSPL and every little niggling thing, and going on about paid coaches and DOCs, no one has an opinion about this? There is an argument that this sort of thing could be seen as the crassest form of self-dealing to profit off of kids. Maybe not?

What is that Nirvana song "Smells Like Hypocrite Spirit"........

Or, it could be seen as you have an ax to grind and no one else is buying in.

What ax to grind would that be?

Does raising the issue of self-dealing profiteering have some partisan connotation I'm not aware of?

For goodness sakes, non-profit clubs whose principals possibly influence funneling kids in that club to for - profit businesses which benefit the very same principals would seem to be an issue.

Is this ok? Is this how business is done in the youth soccer world? Keep in mind that WYS has designated an exclusive set of Premier soccer providers who, at least in theory, can use that power to 1) aggregate players and 2) funnel those players into for profit enterprises.

Does this not bother anyone?

3Play, you are informed about SoCal. Are these leagues for-profit? Do DOCs and club presidents have monetary interests in these leagues?

[Soccer Wonk]

The Coast Soccer League has a member-elected board with publicly posted by-laws and is a registered 501c(3) non-profit.

[mudge]

Some may find it additionally disconcerting that the same self-dealing profiteering coaching director also sits on the Regional Club Subcommittee, a governing subcommittee of Washington Youth Soccer.

Actually, that's not fair. What's disconcerting is that nobody at WYS has the stones to call him on it.

[EWSoccer64]

Some may find it additionally disconcerting that the same self-dealing profiteering coaching director also sits on the Regional Club Subcommittee, a governing subcommittee of Washington Youth Soccer.

When discussing "self-dealing" and "profiteering" along with the RCL-subCommittee, one is being redundant.
You might as well bemoan a member of the Thieves Guild being caught stealing.

[toe_punch]

The Oregon Premier Council is a mutual benefit non-profit corporation in the State of Oregon. We are not a tax-exempt 501-c-3 non-profit because we do not accept donations for operational funding at this time.

mutual benefit non-profit corporation 

[Left Foot]

The Oregon Premier Council is a mutual benefit non-profit corporation in the State of Oregon. We are not a tax-exempt 501-c-3 non-profit because we do not accept donations for operational funding at this time.

mutual benefit non-profit corporation 

Based upon input from others, I believe the NWCL is at issue. Please see what I've posted earlier which seems to indicate that NWCL is a for-profit enterprise:
Hmmm, interesting...
Found this link which lists a for profit corporation called Northwest Champions L.L.C.. Is someone named Greg Ion or Charlie Dent affiliated with any non-profit clubs? If this would be an issue, how would a non-profit club operating as a front for a for profit affect its association? How about a state non-profit that allowed it's clubs to operate in this way?

http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=603009142

Just go to search_detail and type in Northwest Champions L.L.C.

Anyone know who Charlie Dent is?

[Squash]

I believe they are both WPFC people lefty ...... Maybe look at bod or board members of that club.

[Soccer Wonk]

The Oregon Premier Council is a mutual benefit non-profit corporation in the State of Oregon. We are not a tax-exempt 501-c-3 non-profit because we do not accept donations for operational funding at this time.

mutual benefit non-profit corporation  

Formed for the mutual benefit of the members, who are in this case, the eight founding clubs who each have a director to represent them and vote on the council (this is based on a very quick scan of the by-laws.) Strikingly, by the way, the eight directors of the founding clubs whose signature lines appear on the bottom of the by-laws are the coaching directors of the clubs. To those  of us in Washington State, this is eerily familiar.

Most youth soccer organizations including clubs, leagues and associations are public benefit non-profit corporations, which are organized for a public good (such as providing healthy recreation for kids) and can quality as 501c(3) tax-exempt organizations with a charitable purpose that makes donations tax-deductible.

[vusa92blue]

Charlie Dent - President WPFC
Greg Ion - Senior Girls Director

Conspiracy thickens.

[vusa92blue]

9 WPFC teams entered

Total of about 138 teams entered in the league, with a conservative roster of about 15 players per team at $60 per player.  Or, 2070 players at $60.00 each for a total of about $125,000 taken in.  Of course there is overhead, but wow.....

Perspective?

[Left Foot]

It seems to me that there are 2 pieces to the puzzle.

First off is the NWCL which seems to be unquestionably a for-profit enterprise with what looks to have a club president and a club doc as members. I'm assuming that this means that they own the company and stand to profit. Sending 9 teams to the NWCL from WPFC - which presumably the President and DOC would have influence over - would appear to directly enrich the members of the NWCL for-profit corporation.

The second piece is the Oregon non-profit.

I guess another issue to raise would be DOCs that are allowed to run for-profit showcase tournaments which their club teams are obliged to enter. Don't know all the ends-and-outs....

I'm not sure if it is the fact that very few folks have any comments against this kind of situation or that folks like Old Dog and others don't rise to defend the practice that is more suprising....

[HoHum]

Ok, super sleuths.  Appears both sides of the house have their profit motivations. 

Can those PDL club board members / DoC's also be permitted to be owners/investors in the for profit NWCL and use their WYS networks to drive business to them?   Fair question.

Can WYS Board members be owners/investors in for profit youth services organizations and use their WYS networks to drive business to them? Another very fair question.  http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602082554 

Lets all agree that no one has the corner on ethics in youth soccer.  That belief would be the biggest fraud.

Then perhaps neither scenario is bad ... or good ... just it is what it is.  Maybe all parties are doing best for the kids and also making a living at it as well.

Who knows.  Who really cares.

[tripleplay]

The Coast Soccer League has a member-elected board with publicly posted by-laws and is a registered 501c(3) non-profit.

To my knowledge they take their non-profit status very seriously. There have been conflicts over league access when the youth teams have a for-profit parent, for example. Not up on the details.

The "for profit" aspect of left foot's question is a red herring, since very few businesses make a profit. There's plenty of money to be made by controlling non-profits. And washington soccer non-profits have some of the laxest conflict of interest rules and practices you will find anywhere.

[lester]

It seems to me that there are 2 pieces to the puzzle.

First off is the NWCL which seems to be unquestionably a for-profit enterprise with what looks to have a club president and a club doc as members. I'm assuming that this means that they own the company and stand to profit. Sending 9 teams to the NWCL from WPFC - which presumably the President and DOC would have influence over - would appear to directly enrich the members of the NWCL for-profit corporation.

The second piece is the Oregon non-profit.

I guess another issue to raise would be DOCs that are allowed to run for-profit showcase tournaments which their club teams are obliged to enter. Don't know all the ends-and-outs....

I'm not sure if it is the fact that very few folks have any comments against this kind of situation or that folks like Old Dog and others don't rise to defend the practice that is more suprising....

I'm not sure how you connect NWCL and Northwest Champions, LLC just because they have similar names. If you type Crossfire into the search box you get more than a dozen companies that I'm pretty sure don't have anything to do with LW's Crossfire soccer club.

[Soccer Wonk]

From the Northwest Champions League Rules:

Rule 100: Northwest Champions League
The Northwest Champions League (“NWCL”) is administered by Northwest Champions, L.L.C. The NWCL is a US Club Soccer sanctioned league and a member of the United States Soccer Federation (“USSF”).

Rule 1000: Board of Directors
The members of Northwest Champions, L.L.C. manage, oversee and implement policy for the NWCL.

Rule 1001: Soccer Advisory Board
The NWCL Soccer Advisory Board is appointed by Northwest Champions, L.L.C. and is composed of representatives from participating clubs. The Soccer Advisory Board will be responsible for providing guidance and direction over the composition of the NWCL and its competitive format.

[lester]

From the Northwest Champions League Rules:

Rule 100: Northwest Champions League
The Northwest Champions League (“NWCL”) is administered by Northwest Champions, L.L.C. The NWCL is a US Club Soccer sanctioned league and a member of the United States Soccer Federation (“USSF”).

Rule 1000: Board of Directors
The members of Northwest Champions, L.L.C. manage, oversee and implement policy for the NWCL.

Rule 1001: Soccer Advisory Board
The NWCL Soccer Advisory Board is appointed by Northwest Champions, L.L.C. and is composed of representatives from participating clubs. The Soccer Advisory Board will be responsible for providing guidance and direction over the composition of the NWCL and its competitive format.

OK.  That would do it.

[vusa92blue]

What size boot do you finally have in your mouth Les?  Checkmate and holy crap, he doesn't know everything?!...

[Left Foot]

Ok, super sleuths.  Appears both sides of the house have their profit motivations. 

Can those PDL club board members / DoC's also be permitted to be owners/investors in the for profit NWCL and use their WYS networks to drive business to them?   Fair question.

Can WYS Board members be owners/investors in for profit youth services organizations and use their WYS networks to drive business to them? Another very fair question.  http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602082554 

Lets all agree that no one has the corner on ethics in youth soccer.  That belief would be the biggest fraud.

Then perhaps neither scenario is bad ... or good ... just it is what it is.  Maybe all parties are doing best for the kids and also making a living at it as well.

Who knows.  Who really cares.

Maybe they are and maybe they aren't doing what is best for the kids. That is the frickin' issue. Folks charged with making unbiased decisions in one capacity-- some of which require a strict fiduciary duty to refrain from lining there own pockets --  would be seriously compromised when those decisions will result in profit to themselves. That is why there are conflict of interest rules.

And are you really saying that because lot's of folks aren't ethical ethics shouldn't be an issue?

It isn't about making a living. It is about making a living ethically where decisions are free from bias based upon your own enrichment.

The arena sports issue is interesting. A DOC and especially a BOD that directs it's kids to participate in indoor soccer, where that DOC or BOD has a financial interest would create a conflict of interest. Anyone know for certain who owns Arena Sports? Any DOCs or Club/Association/WYS BOD members or employees.

As one thinks about, I seem to recall someone mentioning that non-profits have certain restrictions on the percentage of income that can be paid to staff. Don't know if it is true. But one can imagine one way to get around those limits. Grant certain individuals in the org the right to accrue profits through other avenues where participation/revenue is directed to the outside financial entity by the non-profit.

Since folks seem to be looking at the WPFC connection with NWCL, are there minutes of meetings available where the conflict of interest issues are raised?

I think someone mentioned that the Northwest Showcase of champions was for profit. Is that true?

[Left Foot]

Showcase of Champions looks like it was run by Vision Sports Marketing, Inc. on WPFC fields. Link for the for-profit Vision Sports Marketing, Inc. is here:
http://www.sos.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?ubi=602200588

One would hope that the BODs did their due diligence and addressed obvious conflict of interest issues. But it bogles the mind why WPFC, a non-profit itself would not have taken advantage of the opportunity and, instead, handed that opportunity off to an employee. Can any of you  folks involved with non-profits, especially soccer related, speculate why it would be better to direct the bucks through an outside channel to an employee you are already paying?