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Author Topic: Coaching - for coaches  (Read 1993 times)

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EWSoccer64

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Coaching - for coaches
« on: March 06, 2011, 01:27:18 AM »

This thread is designed for coaches to talk about coaching issues.  If one wants to commeent who is not a coach, please identify themselves as such.

Since the RCL has promotion/relegation of some indefined sort, and state cup group play has their criteria, what is the coaches' view about this sort of situation.  Playing to advance, to achieve the objective (advancement/not being relegated/ etc.) as opposed to winning the game at hand?

And what are the differences in a professional situation - where so many millions of dollars are at stake - compared to the youth situation where the coaches job may be at stake?  yeah, in both situations the coaches job is at stake.

Clearly, there are ethical issues involved, particularly on the youth side more than the professional side.   What are your opinions?





>>>Spain Special: Pellegrini's Malaga Are Not The Only Losers After 7-0 Defeat To Real Madrid
Goal.com's Paul Macdonald assesses the questionable ethics of the Boquerones 7-0 thrashing at the Bernabeu.
By Paul Macdonald
Mar 5, 2011 10:00:00 PM
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Photo GalleryZoomKarim Benzema, Real Madrid, Malaga
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Back in September, Jose Mourinho lambasted Sporting coach Manolo Preciado for fielding a weakened team when taking on champions Barcelona at the Camp Nou. The Portuguese cried foul play, questioning whether an inter-linked conspiracy was at work to ensure that the Primera Division title remained in Catalunya.

His words were met with vitriol, particularly from Preciado himself, who reacted in an expectant manner when his integrity was brought under scrutiny, but the fact remains that the Rojiblancos were indeed short of first-team regulars in their 1-0 defeat. And at the Santiago Bernabeu on Thursday evening, it was the turn of Mourinho's side to be handed a free pass, with Malaga surrendering meekly 7-0 in what was an utterly miserable capitulation.

Visiting coach Manuel Pellegrini was branded as Los Blancos' 'best loser' this week by Mourinho, in reference to his record-breaking, but utterly fruitless spell in charge during 2009-10, but he and his team were not only bad losers on this occasion, they were not the only ones to lose out due to their apathetic attitude towards the contest.

The Chilean made the decision to leave a number of regulars out of his side, mindful of the weekend relegation encounter with Osasuna that represented an infinitely greater chance of achieving a positive result, but in many ways dropping his key players is irrelevant; it was the manner of the defeat that was most galling, and most dangerous for the future competitiveness of the division.

His team were awful; disinterested, disorganized, and frankly conveyed the notion that they had already consigned themselves to defeat before the match had even kicked off. From the moment Karim Benzema neatly volleyed home on the 27th minute, Malaga may as well have walked from the pitch; the French attacker, with teammates Mesut Oezil and Cristiano Ronaldo, were given the freedom of the stadium, strolling around with training-ground aplomb as the goals flew in.

The Andalucians had the worst defensive record in the division prior to the match, anyway, which gave an indication that Los Blancos could win handsomely, but when players simply neglect their duties because they know victory is unlikely, the entire fabric of league competition is placed into disrepute.

 The Big Two's Trail of Destruction
Oct 03 Real Madrid 6 Deportivo
 1
Oct 23 Real Madrid 6 Racing 1 
Oct 30 Barcelona 5 Sevilla 0
Nov 20 Almeria 0 Barcelona 8
Nov 20 Real Madrid 5 Athletic Bilbao 1
Dec 12 Barcelona 5 Real Sociedad 0
Dec 18 Espanyol 1 Barcelona 5
Dec 22 Real Madrid 8 Levante 0
Mar 03 Real Madrid 7 Malaga 0
The concept of fielding reserve players when a more important match awaits is one thing; almost throwing the contest is quite another. There must have came a point when Pellegrini, as a highly-respected tactician, was thoroughly embarrassed by the flagrant manner in which they invited submission. Incompetence is one thing - not trying is quite another.

They are not the first culprits of simply striking a cross through the calendar when it reads Barcelona or Real Madrid. Almeria were even more resoundly humiliated in November, but on that occasion, Juan Manuel Lillo was sacked almost immediately after the final whistle, having clearly lost the ability to motivate his team into some semblance of resistance.

This, however, was a pre-conceived defeat, a fixture played out by the Boquerones as if it didn't exist. Pellegrini's openly unapologetic stance in the post-match press conference was almost as irritating as the performance, of lack thereof, from his team.

"Our game is against Osasuna, not tonight. We rested players for that. I would have rested Eliseu, [Martin] Demichelis and Weligton, too, but I had no more players," he told the media.

“I understand that this is a disappointment, but I think it would have been irresponsible to have played with the best players. Against Real Madrid, we cannot get a result. The truth is that this match does not affect us at all.” 

La Liga's financial disparities are well-documented, but when teams start admitting defeat before games are played, the duopoly of the big two will remain forever, and the Primera Division may as well be replaced by a pair of El Clasico fixtures, with the rest fighting among themselves for the other 18 spots.

And who is to say what kind of impact such a result will have on Madrid's season? Ronaldo hadn't scored in four matches, but blasted a hat-trick to bolster his confidence, while Benzema helped himself to a double, and there was even time for a rare appearance from Sergio Canales.

It is easy to understand the mindset of a team where remaining in the top flight is their only objective - but they have sacrificed their dignity in order to fight another day, at somewhere else other than at the Bernabeu.

<<<
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 01:44:54 AM »

Certainly every coach has been in a situation like this.
But as a Youth Coach, how do YOU take on a situation like this?


<<<>>>Real Zaragoza Coach Javier Aguirre: Barcelona Are Unstoppable
Aguirre lauds Barcelona's winning mentality, but laments the chasm in the league between the top two and the rest.
By Patrick Devaney
Mar 5, 2011 4:57:00 PM
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Photo GalleryZoomLiga BBVA: Lionel Messi (FC Barcelona), Ivan Obradovic (Real Zaragoza)
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Real Zaragoza coach hailed Barcelona as ''unstoppable'' as his team fell to the Catalan giants. He called the 1-0 defeat ''just and fair'' as his team made the current champions work right until the very end.

Speaking to La Vanguardia, he said, "'Barcelona are currently unstoppable. They are just relentless."

He also went on to say that Real Madrid and Barca are not ''in the same competition as Zaragoza."

"The distance between the top two and the other eighteen is massive. The league has become very polarized," said a resigned Aguirre.

Having praised his goalkeeper for stopping the scoreline getting any ''bulkier'', he was dejected feeling that for all their hard work over the 90 minutes, they come away with nothing.

''We were almost flawless. We will go home pissed, there's no doubt about that,'' he said defiantly.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 04:27:38 PM by EWSoccer64 »
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ThiKuBC

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 11:47:25 AM »

1. Is there a way to subscribe to this thread?

2. Can you change the pink font so we can read your post more easily?

3. Every youth coach has been on both sides of a 10-0 thrashing. They are horrible games and unless you are an egomaniac (which many are!) you hate those games.

4. Did anyone attend the coaching forum in Seattle a few weeks back? I did not go, but some coaches from my community went and had good things to say. Apparently teams down there are really big on coaching players to put heavy challenges in on the GK's on high crosses!  :angel:
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Left Foot

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 02:22:50 PM »

Well, if not playing your best players is an issue, what about a league where you don't even play the games?
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 04:28:48 PM »

There you go, BC!
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 02:08:13 AM »

Well, apparently no coaches wanted to discuss the ethics in youth soccer of gaming a tournament.

So what about this issue -

As a coach of a youth team, is your number loyalty and responsibility to the players you coach as a team, or to the club you coach for?
This is a very real issue in many clubs.
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yote19

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2011, 10:55:21 AM »

OK I will bite.  In my years of coaching I was very loyal to the players of my team.  I selected them and it was my responsibility to promote the players and get them to playing to the best of their abilities.  However, as I moved through my experiences of coaching, I found that it was more important to bring in fresh players every year to help spice up competition in practice, improve team play and help promote competion level within league and the state.  When it came to club responsibilities, I was never approached with selection issues until it all blew up with club politics.  Then it was too late and the team and the club took a beating at our age group. 
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kameharem

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2011, 04:40:47 PM »

I was never approached with selection issues until it all blew up with club politics.  Then it was too late and the team and the club took a beating at our age group.  

yep, been there and it's been a tough year for the players because of it.

edit to say I have coached in the past but am not currently a coach.
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goldengoal

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2011, 04:55:45 PM »

from a bigger club point of view who will attract players based on the club, it is much easier to be less loyal to players because the players are less loyal to you. I am there to train and they are their to develop and if they dont like my style they leave or they will be replaced by other players next year.

From a small club you have to be more loyal to the core group, otherwise they will find another team, generally a bigger club.
Small clubs that try to act like big clubs, will always stay small because they spend their money on everything else but the player development or at least not enough.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2011, 05:17:38 PM »

What do you tell a kid who gets an offer from a P-1 team in a neighboring town, and your club's P-3 team wants him too (after the year before cuting him at tryouts, but they have been suffering from attrition)??? 

What if your club is pressing you to enter certain expensive tournaments that you feel are not suitable for your team but the club wants to maximize representation?   It is obviously good to play against tougher competition and to try to stretch the players and the team, but to spend alot of money to travel to get destroyed is not developing the team much either.

What if your club wants every team to play a certain formation and style, but your team is now at an advanced age (U-16-U-18) and has been very successful in a different set of formations, and plays a very possession oriented, short passing game instead of the new style the club is adopting?


What if the club is trying to reinforce a team at the same playing level, but a year older, and wants five of your players to move up one or two age groups?  And if the players do not want to, and say so, then the club president and DoC start contacting the players directly and pressuring them?   Should the coach encourage the players to move, to fulfill the needs of the club or is his duty to try to support the players wishes and tell the club administration to leave the players alone?

There are many situations in coaching where the proper course is not very clear cut, and the conflict of loyalties with a coach can be a difficult situation.

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kameharem

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2011, 01:40:07 PM »


What if your club is pressing you to enter certain expensive tournaments that you feel are not suitable for your team but the club wants to maximize representation?   It is obviously good to play against tougher competition and to try to stretch the players and the team, but to spend alot of money to travel to get destroyed is not developing the team much either.


when did you take up mind reading?
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 06:06:20 PM »

OK coaches, we have a real treat coming up.  Four times in 18 days two of the best five teams in the world, some would say the two best teams in the world, are going to be playing each other in 3 different competitions.

So what can we learn from this?   What should we watch for?   What changes would you make from what we have been seeing from Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Everyone knows what Barcelona is going to do.  Without Puyol and Abidal, and with Krkic injured (he was a sub anyway), they will put Bisquick (since he is so soft and gooey for a def mid!) in the center of defense with Pique (who is making mistakes right now).   Alves and Adriano outside at fullback.   Mascharano, Xavi and Iniesta in the middle, Villa, Messiah, and Pedro up top.   Kieta as the first sub off the bench, most likely.
But Real Madrid has and uses more formations and more combinations.  It looks like they will have both Higuin and Kaka back from long term injuries.   They have the speed on the flanks from DiMaria and Ronaldo.  They have a variety of strikers they can use.   So to me is what are the systems and players that Real Madrid are going to use?
And I do not forsee JoMo using the same set up twice in a row.   While Pep is hailed for building a program step by step and sticking with it, giving his players perhaps more familairity and cohesiveness than any other team out there, JoMo is the master of tweaking and changing, of playing tactical to suit the circumstances.
    Perhaps the game that Real Madrid can most afford to lose is their first one, the La Liga contest.  Because Real Madrid is realistically out of it, with 8 points in six games left.  Even a win would only narrow the margin to 5 points, Barca would have to lose twice more while Real ran the table.   And no one sees that happening.

Could JoMo use the the la Liga contset to set up Barca for the following Copa Del Rey final?  He could  dos o, based upon his history.  But how would that affect his team phsychologically, to have been definitively trounced out of the the league, and losing twice more in succession to Barca?  Remember that they have lost five straight ( I think) to Barca in La Liga over the past  2 1/2 years.   Would losing to Barca in the first of the four have a big impact on his players for the following games?   Losing both the La Liga and the Copa Del Rey would obviously do so?  Or would it?

Thoughts?
Comments?
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2011, 03:45:12 PM »

Various pundits are thinking that Real Madrid will replicate Inter's magic against Barca of last year for the same reason - JoMo parking the bus and trying to hit on the counterattack.   I do not see Real as having as good a defense across the board as the Italian team did, though.   On the other hand, Barcelona's defense is suspect, particularly to pace, as we have seen time and again.   And Mascharano is suspended for the next El Calssico.     
And the game will be in Madrid.

Thoughts?
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footie fan

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 03:55:23 PM »

It is much easier to play defense if you have the ball.   Certainly Real appears a bit better abled to handle what Barca did last time, but it's hard to think that Barca is weaker if they are still able to maintain possession.  Considering the pedigre of these two clubs, it's likely the games will split (along what lines, who knows?)

I actually believe Barca will try to remain supportive, but more compact in the back so that their possessive passing out of the back is more vertical and avoids the flank strength of Real while leaving the back line in a good defensive starting position on the rare occurances they are dispossesed.

I believe Real will try to hold a higher line with it's attackers and push the passes of the barca back line to the flank (Real's strength), so that the counter attack occurs ealier in th field and with higher numbers.  Certainly Real must try to penetrate quickly since they don't seem able to hold the ball for long periods.

But alas, I am not the gaffer.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 04:58:48 PM »

Two reasons why I do not think that Real Madrid will try to hold a high line against Barcelona.

First, by not playing so high up, they will be lengthening the field.   That will increase the distance between Barcelona players defensively.   That will give madrid more opportunities to go 1v1, particularly on the flanks where they have the speed of CRonaldo and DiMaria.   And if the Barcelona fullbacks are caught up field - which ahs been happening more and more for Alves as he searches for individual glory - that will stretch out the weakened Barcelona defense.

Second of all, I do not think that this would be a successful tactic.   David Villa makes beating an offside trap an art form, and he was still working with that aspect when the two teams played before.  Even so, he was erroniously called off twice that I recall and other times shredded the Madrid Defense with his timed runs.   Now the Barcelona midfielders being more used to him and his runs, I suspect that this aspect will be more dangerous (despite his current drought).   Further, attempts to play a high line in the past against Barca have not been notably successful. 

It would be more sensible to me if Real Madrid played deep and compact, trying to jam the middle.   The Barca attackers all on the short side, except for Keita.   And Busquets will be back at central defense for this match.    This limits the viability of a crossing to the Goal Mouth - Header style attack, which Barca has shown problems conducting in the past against Mourinho's teams.

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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2011, 12:26:28 AM »

Cristiano Ronaldo in article out today said that he is the Real Madrid captain.   That I did not know.  I thought that you had to be able to grow some hair on your......legs before you could become captain.  I thought that Iker Casilias was the captain?    Is "Petulant Boy" engaged in more self promotion?

Anyway, in the article, he let on that the main drive of Real Madrid was to beat Barca in the Champions League.  Is this gamesmanship?  An attempt to lull Barcelona before the first game, only 2 days away?

Given the emphatic drubbing that Real suffered from Barcalona in the First El Classico  (yes, each of the FIVE will numbered this year) it seems to me that the worst that can happen to Real Mudred is that they lose by multiple goals in the Second El Classico.  That would set them up mentally for failure in numbers Three, Four and Five.   Particularly since this one is at their home.

Anyone have other thoughts?

Footie Fan, it will be interesting to see which of us is closer to the mark and what type of rabbit JoMo tries to pull out of his coaching hat this time around.   An attempt at gamesmanship before the big day would be just like him.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2011, 04:35:07 PM »

One pundet today suggested that Real Madrid may employee a 4-3-3 instead of JoMo's usual 4-4-2.   Personally, I do not see the utility of that against barcelona.   Barca on the attack looks like a 3-4-3, or even a 2-5-3, with only the central defenders staying back.   A 4-3-3 does not match up all that well with that unless you are pulling your wing forwards back into a defensive 4-5-1.   Having one forward up to launch the fast counterattacks with would be a low percentage operation, and you would basically be ceding all the possession and majority of the attacking options to Barca.   And I do not think that DiMaria and Ronaldo would be most effective as withdrawn flank forwards with heavy defensive responsibilities.

If I were JoMo, I would be thinking about a 4-4-2, with both DiMaria and Ronaldo up top, shifting so that that the center and the strong side were always covered.   This would split the Barca defense, most likely with one of the (relatively slow) center backs moving over to the strong side to cover the forward that was out there.   The choice of DiMaria and Ronaldo is made because of their speed, their stamina, their attacking prowess and their 1v1 abilities.    Use two more defensive minded, reliable players as the outside mids to guard against the runs of Alves and Adriano.  The concept would be quick direct long balls to the two fast forwards whenever the Real defenders and mids were able to win the ball.   I am not sold on this idea, but it is one that is intrigueing.

Comments?
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metz123

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2011, 06:22:53 PM »

It won't matter what formation JoMo applies if barca continues to pressure immediately after losing possession. I don't think Real has the horses to counter quick enough to exploit the lack of pace in Barca's defense. By the time they've extracted the ball from pressure, the defense will have recovered. That's the key to Barca. It's not all about the possession game, it's their ability to get the ball back so quickly after losing possession.

The one advantage Real has in playing these 5 games in succession is becoming more familiar with that immediate pressure and learning how to counter it.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2011, 06:31:34 PM »

It won't matter what formation JoMo applies if barca continues to pressure immediately after losing possession. I don't think Real has the horses to counter quick enough to exploit the lack of pace in Barca's defense. By the time they've extracted the ball from pressure, the defense will have recovered. That's the key to Barca. It's not all about the possession game, it's their ability to get the ball back so quickly after losing possession.

The one advantage Real has in playing these 5 games in succession is becoming more familiar with that immediate pressure and learning how to counter it.

Salient points, Metz.

However, one technique (Let's call in EnglishBall) is to use the first touch to boot the ball 50, 60 yards to a predetermined area of the pitch.   In youth ball, I used this as an immediate outlet/clearance when my defenders where underpressure.   They knew that the target area was in the 5 yard box area just beyond the midfield stripe and adjacent to the sidelines on either side of the field.   The forwards knew that was the area that the immediate outlet/clearance was to be aimed for, and it was their responsibility to meet the ball there.    If they did not, then the ball would normally go out of bounds.   No really big deal.
So the suggestion is that instead of tryign to play the ball up the field with a possession oriented attack, RM just tries to play boot ball up to the forwards who are isolating the Barca defenders.

Your point about the unrelenting immediate pressure by the Barca players when they lose the ball is well taken.   That is a very often overlooked essential part of barcelona play.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2011, 05:38:26 PM »

Well JoMo had his players go out and play a bit thuggishly.   I lost track of the times that a Barca player was hit after playing the ball away.      RM used a 4-3-3, and tried for a very high workrate to apply pressure to barcelona.   It seemed to work for long periods, too.

I thought that JoMo did a better job than Pep with the substitiutions.  After Puyol left, the Barcelona defense became rather ragged and disorganized.   The faster RM attackers became more dangerous, even with RM down to 10 players.

Bisquick should have dropped into center def and Kieta into the midfield.  Not really sure that this happened, saw Kieta in the middle of the D alot.
Afellay is not a scoring threat like Pedro, the only excuse for that subsitution is if Pedro, coming back from injury, needed to come out (fitness).
Adriano was pulled for Maxwelll.   I never thought that Maxwell was that fast, and Adriano had been playing well.  So why do that?

Adebayor for RM came in and made an impact, as did Ozil.   
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EWSoccer64

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Re: Coaching - for coaches
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2011, 02:09:38 AM »

A lot of pundits are predicting that Real Madrid will win tomorrow's Copa Del Rey.   
A neutral venue, with a quality pitch,  a different referee, and Barcalona should have lost all its over-confidence.   Plus Barca is now once again used to the JoMo defensive/persitent thuggery tactics.   All that is advantage to Barca.
On Real's side, now they know that they can play with Barca without getting their doors blown off.


I  have to think that Barcelona will come out ahead, 2-1
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