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[plentyofgames]

We need one of our refs to weigh in and explain the rule. In Oregon the official time is on the clock. Is it official down to 2 minutes under Washington rules or is it simply advisory? There is no added extra time under the Oregon rules; sounds like there may be under Washington's. Yes, it is a shame for a good game to end that way.

[ritz bitz]

Some Districts keep time on the clock and it stops and starts thru the game.  So I guess someone in the booth is actually keeping time, not sure our district does it the other way....

 The clock starts and runs continuously until it hits 2 minutes then it stops and time is kept on the field by the ref., thus stoppage time can be added. Wesco does it this way.

[swinginrichard]

Some Districts keep time on the clock and it stops and starts thru the game.  So I guess someone in the booth is actually keeping time, not sure our district does it the other way....

 The clock starts and runs continuously until it hits 2 minutes then it stops and time is kept on the field by the ref., thus stoppage time can be added. Wesco does it this way.

Yep, I've seen it done both ways. Even in Wesco when the game gets towards the end, the ref can signal for the clock to stop. Usually during an injury. Seems odd though a state tourney game wouldn't have the same set of rules as other tourney games. Do they have to ref by the rules of the jurisdiction they're in? In this case Wesco was the home team.

[Redkard]

The rule states that the clock should run down to 0:00 during each period.

Referees are at the mersy of the ability and skill of the clock operator.

Yes I've been involved in both senarios, and others that are complicated by how the clock is managed during high school.  Stopping the clock for: goals, issuing cards, equipment problems and injurries.

As a parent I hated stopping the clock at 2:00.  My son's team was the victim of allowing as much time as it took to score the tying goal once.

I am an advocate of the high school clock (as well as the college clock, yes the have a similar system) to be handled like the rest of the soccer world.  The referee crew should have the responsibility of dealing with time.

[1usa1]

Just one more reason why high school soccer is a joke.

[Redkard]

Time does not make high school soccer a joke.

If that was the case; why would we want a player to play in college?

wait until you figure out the time and the substitution rules in college.

I work those game and it took 1+ years before it became 2nd nature.

Each competition has its set of laws and or rules.  We all have to adjust and deal with them.

[plentyofgames]

The high school soccer is a joke comments are boring.

On clock management, the high school referees in Oregon use signals to the clock operator very similar to the signals used in football to stop and start the game clock. That is the official time. Just like the NCAA rule. I don't like it, but I think that is mostly because I'm not used to it. I also think it puts referees in a bind in the last few seconds of a game because stopping the clock when there's obvious time wasting still looks like favoritism where when the clock is kept by the ref on the field we all know that kicking the ball away on a corner or a free kick isn't going to end the game.

[Rock27]

In Kingco league in WA the time is kept on the field by the ref at the 2 minute mark.

[Str8red]

This is a source of no small irritation among many referees.

The HS rules are explicit about when the clock must be stopped, and the rules say nothing about stopping the stadium clock at 2 minutes and playing the rest of the game on the referee's watch. Clearly this is a custom in some areas, but it's not supported by the rules of the HS game.

If I were a coach who lost a game on a goal scored in this sort of made up stoppage time, I would protest and contend that this was a misapplication of the rules by the referee. Don't know if anybody's done that before.

[Str8red]

The rule does produce some tough moments for referees, particularly in the dying seconds when the trailing team has won a corner or a free kick and the ball goes rolling away.

Of course, there is a remedy if the leading team wastes time: stop the clock, and book the offending player. The rules call for the clock to be stopped for cautions and sendoffs.

But if the ball has rolled away under normal circumstances and the trailing team can't get it back in time to get off the corner or the free kick, well, that's the breaks. They had the previous 80 minutes to do something about it.

Whether we like this rule is irrelevant.

[EWSoccer64]

I haven't refereed a HS game in a decade (retired due to injury) but the rule used to be:
When an official clock was kept, it was by a 4th certified official.  And in which case, it ran all the way down.  It was the official clock.  State Playoff games were supposed to have such an official time keeper. 

If someone from one of the High schools ran the clock, they were supposed to stop it at the two minute mark, and then the referee would control the game. 

And even before the two minute mark, in both scenarios, the referee could signal for the clock to stop, temporarily.

As someone else pointed out, referees having to do many different leagues have to follow all sorts of different sets of guidelines.  It is easy to get confused.  And sometimes the "pure soccer" instincts take over, too.

[Otter]

Interestingly enough, in the state of Washington there are two ways to keep time in High School soccer.  Official time can either be kept by an official "Timer" or it can be kept by the Referee.

NFHS Soccer Rules:  Rule 6, Section 2, Article 1:

The home school timer shall be the official timer.  However, by mutual agreement of opposing coaches or by state high school association adoption, the official time may be kept by the head referee.

WIAA in the state of Washington permits time to be kept by the Referee which is in accordance with NFHS rules.  Many schools prefer not to have to provide an official timer for soccer and would rather allow the Referee to keep time.  In addition, we spend most of our time talking on this forum about 3A and 4A schools but the smaller 2A, 2B, 1A and 1B schools do not all have stadium nor clocks so what works for the big schools may not work for the small ones.

[keepermum]

This is a source of no small irritation among many referees.

The HS rules are explicit about when the clock must be stopped, and the rules say nothing about stopping the stadium clock at 2 minutes and playing the rest of the game on the referee's watch. Clearly this is a custom in some areas, but it's not supported by the rules of the HS game.

If I were a coach who lost a game on a goal scored in this sort of made up stoppage time, I would protest and contend that this was a misapplication of the rules by the referee. Don't know if anybody's done that before.

This exact circumstance is a hotly contested issue down in Bonney Lake.  A friend sent this email chain to us, illustrating an example of how HS rules ARE NOT being followed. She requested we give this as much attention as we could.  I apologize for the length, but I felt it necessary to give this some attention.

Email chain as follows:

Hi everyone,

As you know, the Boys playoff game was Tuesday night with a controversial outcome.  Our Boys played very well and the staff of BLHS is working through the State WIAA contested issue process.  Please read the messages below from our Coaching staff and how you can also voice your concerns to this issue at the listed WIAA, NFHS and other email addresses.  If you have questions on the contested game process, please let us know. We are very proud of how our students handled themselves on the field and let's support them, along with our staff as they work through this issue.  Send your messages of concern as soon as you can.

Thank you,
Laurie Selle, MAE
Co-President
PPSP

 ----- Original Message -----

                    Dear parent supporters of BLHS Soccer.   As you may now our boys season came to screeching halt with a controversial game in playoffs.   We
                    appreciate your support throughout the season. Any of you aware of the boys playoff game, we worked hard behind the scenes (as did our entire school
                    administrative team) in making the "situation" corrected, but to no avail.   If you have any interest at all, below are the series of emails that transpired
                    between Coach H and I to our admin, our athletic director, state WIAA, and NFHS (national federation of high schools).   We much remain fighting behind
                    the scenes but want to encourage any of you that have a "passion" to follow up any of our emails with emails of your own to any of the following.  Continue to
                    read below to all the highlighted emails sent from us to all parties (as of yet, no one has responded), please include as many people as you are comfortable
                    including.   We need some bulldogs, as you read our emails you will see that they are counting on the "public school" parents to not raise a ruckus, rather
                    than deal with the "private school" parents on the issue we dealt with.   Thanks for your Support - Coach H and Coach J

BLHS Athletic Director, Brian Scheerer, brian_scheerer@sumner.wednet.edu
District Athletic Director, Tim Thomsen , tim_thomsen@sumner.wednet.edu
WIAA Soccer Director, John Miller, <jmiller@wiaa.com>
NFHS - you have to go to www.nfhs.org and use their "contact us" service

 

Below are the emails to give you context sent to our state association, WIAA:

----------------------------------------
This is to notify you that the game this evening, May 17 at Interbay Stadium, Bonney Lake vs Lakeside in Round 1 of State 3A Playoffs is being "contested" on the actions of the referees at the contest.

This report is on behalf of the head coach of Bonney Lake High School, Luke Helling-Christy.   He immediately notified the 4th referee and head referee of the contested action of the head referee at the time of the action taken and will be in the referee report.

At the end of the first half, the clock was stopped at 1 min and the crowd and we were notified the final minute would be kept by the referee on the field.  Pursuant to NFHS Soccer Rule 6: Section 2:  Art 1-3 (pg 32-33) were not followed by stopping the clock at one minute and allowing the final minute to be played out at the referees discretion.  At that final minute of the first half, the head coach and I went to the forth referee and cited the rule to him and questioned clarification from the referees during halftime.   After halftime we were told that it is at the referee's discretion to stop the clock and run the time on the field.   We let the forth referee and head referee know that if it was an issue in the 2nd half, we would officially protest the action of the referee for not following Rule 6:  Section2:  Art 1-3 (pg 32-33).

Bonney Lake was ahead 2-0 with 20 minutes remaining.   Just prior to about 1 minute left,  Lakeside scored and the score was 2-1.   The clock was stopped at one minute and announced to the crowd.   At that exact announcement the head coach, Luke Helling-Christy, officially asked the forth referee to document the contested stoppage of the clock before the play resumed.   Throughout the second half the clock was stopped numerous times for injuries, or delays during the entire game, so there was no reason to "add time".   After more than 2 minutes and approximately 26 seconds (on multiple peoples watches in the crowd), Lakeside scored and evened the game 2-2.  The game was called after that goal.  The game went into PK's and Bonney Lake lost.

The issue is this:  Should Rule 6: Section 2: Art 1-3 been followed as written in NFHS Soccer Rules, the clock would have continued running and the clock announcer would have counted down 10-1 and the game would have ended 2-1 in favor of Bonney Lake.   This direct action by the referee in violation of Rule 6:  Section 2:  Art 1-3 changed the outcome of the game. 

We are very familiar with this rule as five years ago we were in a similar situation when it cost us a league game for placing, we did not protest before play resumed, so we were told the game stood but that we were correct in our assumption that the referee violated Rule 6:  Secion 2:  Art 1-3 by stopping the clock.  We were told that if we would have protested before play resumed we would have had the situation corrected.   We are hoping that will be true for this case.

In addition, what makes this action by the referee even more complex, I as the assistant coach went to the Glacier Peak vs O'Dea game this same evening and got there right at the end of the 1st half to watch the clock tick down to 0 with an announcer announcing 10-1 to end the time, no referee took control of the time, they followed Rule 6:  Section 2:  Art 1-3 as written in the NFHS Soccer Rules Handbook.   How can there be fairness in the competitions based on referee's chosing whether or not to follow Rule 6:  Section 2:  Art 1-3 from site to site in a state playoff?   If we would have played at a site where the referee followed Rule 6:  Section 2:  Art 1-3, we would have won the game.
In addition, we went to the State 3A Final Four this year with our girls team and Rule 6:  Section 2:  Art 1-3 was followed in every match at the Final Four.   In fact, we have not come across this issue in any games we have played in the last four years in Pierce or King Counties, even down in the Camas area, all games for the last four years we have played where a clock was available on a scoreboard, Rule 6:  Section 2:  Art 1-3 was followed.

I would hope that the appropriate fix to this action on the referees which changed the outcome of the game would be to replay the game at a neutral site in an appropriate time to determine a winner for quarterfinal round.

Please contact Luke Helling-Christy @ [ mailto:luke_helling-christy@sumner.wednet.edu ]luke_helling-christy@sumner.wednet.edu or 253-891-5700 for more information.  Feel free to work with our Athletic Director, Brian Scheerer @ [ mailto:brian_scheerer@sumner.wednet.edu ]brian_scheerer@sumner.wednet.edu or 253-891-5700 or our District Athletic Director, Tim Thomsen, both have been informed of our "contested" issue with this game.

Randal S. Jones
Bonney Lake High School
Go Panthers~

 
----------------------------------------
After the decision was made the following was sent to our state association:

                     We received notice of your protest and will work with Brian Sheerer and Tim Thomsen to get it resolved as soon as possible.
                     Thanks
                     John

 
--------------------------------------

It is unfortunate that the decision was returned as it was.   I appreciate the time and energy spent on the protest filed on our behalf but respectfully disagree with the outcome.

I am disappointed because we followed instructions as indicated to us from the previous time this happened four years ago, did exactly what protocol said we should do, and are told that the officials once again did not follow NHSF rules set forth.   Why have the rule if it is not adhered to?   Why tell us the first time it happened that if you just would have "followed protocol" the outcome would have been different ... and we did this time and the outcome is the same?   Very frustrating and very disappointing.

As the governing body of athletics in Washington it is your job to enforce the rules of the sports and correct them when not followed.   To say sorry based on previous instances and rulings on them we are denying your protest is a really dumb reason, especially when all involved admit that the referee's did not follow NHSF rules on time keeping.   It makes no sense.

Unfortunately the tough decison, and I know it was, came down to "politics" - it would be easier to tell the team that lost with the rule violation, sorry you lost, rathar than tell the team that won, sorry you lost or you need to replay it.   It feels a little cowardly.   At some point, some state will have to move to remove this rule or have the guts to enforce it and overturn a situation like ours to change what is inconsistency in refereeing.

The saddest part is no one wins with this ruling, no one.   What's worse is the message we have to give our athlete's that we are working hard to develop character and a sense of hard work and "play fair".   The message to them is there are rules we enforce and there are rules we do not because ... ? You have to answer that question to our players.

Unfortunately, I was also told that part of the decision hinged on "consent of coaches" and whether or not we were informed.   Did anyone talk to our head coach about this particular thread you hung your decision on?  No.  He was NOT informed that the last minute would be kept on the field prior to the game, he was informed by the "announcer" announcing that the "last minute would be kept on the field by the referee".  It was at that time we notified them of the halftime protest, no consent implied or stated was EVER given for the time to be kept on the field.  Let me make this very clear:   NO ONE talked to our head coach about "consent" or investigation of "consent", no ref, no one from WIAA, NO ONE, EVER.

I am very sad at what this decision represents.   Wrong message.   Wrong assumptions.   And frankly, the easy way out of the mess.   The implied hope is Bonney Lake will go whimpering away quietly because they already thought they had lost ... Lakeside would be up in arms and make everyone's life miserable.  Do not get me wrong, I respect that you toiled as you did with this issue, I mean no disrespect, but frankly the outcome misrepresents what athletics should be about, "playing fair" - our state athletic motto.

 
Feel free to pass this email onto anyone that needs to read it, you have my permission.   I will be sharing it with others that need to read it to.
I hope our next experience with the WIAA is a more positive one.

Randal S. Jones
Bonney Lake High School
Go Panthers~
-----------------------------------

The following email was sent to NFHS this morning regarding the ruling on the contest we have been discussing, since you have been included along the way, I thought you should be aware should their office contact you (the do not have a typical email system at NFHS or I would have attached you all on the original but everything below was in the email):

                       In a recent request for guidance by the state of Washington to your office on a protest of Rule 6: Section 2: Art 1-3 NFHS Soccer Rule Book, your
                       recommendation to the state was to do nothing, as that is what had been done in the past on protests on this issue.  Both our state and your office
                       acknowledged that the rule was not followed by officials but yet you still made the recommendation to do nothing because that was the precedent that was
                       set in prior rulings.   

                       I have done research on this rule and know that it was instituted over 6 years ago precisely because NFHS was attempting to objectify the time component
                       to soccer to eliminate complaints about referees extending time arbitrarily by taking control of the time on the field and potentially changing the outcome
                       of the game.   

                       I do not understand why there is a rule in the book that your association is not willing to enforce with referees.  In effect, you have nullified the intent of
                       the rule by not holding officials accountable. 

                       As a coach, I am handed the NFHS rule book and expected to know all the high school rules and abide by them.  I would assume that all referee associations
                       are handed the same book for officiating high school games and expected to go by the rules.  That is obviously not the case.   

                       I recommend that one of two things happen, either revise the rule or eliminate it, or start enforcing the rule be being brave and holding officials
                       accountable and ruling in favor of protested contests.   I am disappointed in both your association and my state association for not holding officials
                       associations accountable for the same rule book you hold me accountable to as a coach.   

                       Randal S Jones
                       Boys Assistant Soccer Coach
                       Bonney Lake High School

 

[plentyofgames]

The rule does produce some tough moments for referees, particularly in the dying seconds when the trailing team has won a corner or a free kick and the ball goes rolling away.

Of course, there is a remedy if the leading team wastes time: stop the clock, and book the offending player. The rules call for the clock to be stopped for cautions and sendoffs.

But if the ball has rolled away under normal circumstances and the trailing team can't get it back in time to get off the corner or the free kick, well, that's the breaks. They had the previous 80 minutes to do something about it.

Whether we like this rule is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant whether we like a rule. That's how rules get changed.  To me the "rule" has always been the game ends when time (including added extra time) has expired and the ball is in a neutral position.

[1usa1]

Sounds like the O'Dea  Glacier Peak game also hinged on a "clock management issue"...what the hell is going on here?

[erickb]

I love the game but the rules as simple as they are in theory are much more complicated when no Ref uses them the same. Sounds like even the people that govern the rules don't really know what to do about anything.

Clock issues can be fixed easily, put it on the scoreboard 4th official tells the board operated to start and stop the clock, boom fixed IMO

[ritz bitz]

I think it's all a matter of what you are used to vs. change or something different.  Our district stops at the 2 min. mark when we went to state playoffs and they ran the clock down to zero it seemed weird and I did not like it as it was unfamiliar but I accepted that was the way it was done did not even think to go reading the rules and making a stink. If it comes down to if a ref justifiably added 30 seconds or not really?  I did not blame the ref or the time keeper for our team losing.  Score goals frequently and early then it won't be an issue. I am not invlolved with any of the mentioned schools and my kids are all girls so I have no bias one way or the other.
 
I wish we would spend all this energy on Alzheimers, Aids, World Peace, Feeding the hungry or something more global.

I know most will think this funny but consider the expense of a 4th ref vs just having the center keep the clock?  In our district we have revamped our kindergarden model to eliminate the need for mid day school busses and are shutting down buildings and packing others even fuller just to save money. Going as far as alotments of copy paper and students sharing text books - for my $ I'd rather have some paper or a few more books than pay a 4th ref.

[yote19]

Can anybody relay info on the games as the papers put nothing in them and all I hear on this forum is about the dang clock.  Just score more fricking goals and win the game.

[1usa1]

Can anybody relay info on the games as the papers put nothing in them and all I hear on this forum is about the dang clock.  Just score more fricking goals and win the game.

  Not always as simple as that and besides IF refs are screwing up then it needs to be dealt with.

[EWSoccer64]

Ritz Bitz does bring up a salient point.  The expenses involved of playoffs.   Soccer is not a money maker for HS, we all know that.  And hiring another official for a play off game is going to be $100 to $150 in additional expenses.  Multiply that by all the play off games in all classifications across the state, and even if you had the officials available to do it, you are talking about the expense of a teacher's salary.   Remember, no AD or school board considers boys soccer as important as time out of school, football, or so many other things.  And replaying a soccer game for whatever reason, costs.
If everyone had enough money, it would not be an issue.

I think it's all a matter of what you are used to vs. change or something different.  Our district stops at the 2 min. mark when we went to state playoffs and they ran the clock down to zero it seemed weird and I did not like it as it was unfamiliar but I accepted that was the way it was done did not even think to go reading the rules and making a stink. If it comes down to if a ref justifiably added 30 seconds or not really?  I did not blame the ref or the time keeper for our team losing.  Score goals frequently and early then it won't be an issue. I am not invlolved with any of the mentioned schools and my kids are all girls so I have no bias one way or the other.
 
I wish we would spend all this energy on Alzheimers, Aids, World Peace, Feeding the hungry or something more global.

I know most will think this funny but consider the expense of a 4th ref vs just having the center keep the clock?  In our district we have revamped our kindergarden model to eliminate the need for mid day school busses and are shutting down buildings and packing others even fuller just to save money. Going as far as alotments of copy paper and students sharing text books - for my $ I'd rather have some paper or a few more books than pay a 4th ref.

[hulabaloo]

I don't know much about this one but just for what I quickly read on the last few posts, but it would suck to be on the receiving end of that one.  Yeah there are costs involved  and maybe the team should move one but coaches, players and parents put in a lot of time, money and effort.  I see a lot of points on both sides but at some point you just get tired of saying oh well.  Maybe protesting the game will mean it gets corrected in the future.

[Game Face]

Congrats to Eastlake Boys 4A soccer who won their semi final match tonight vs Kentwood, 2-1.  Eastlake will face the winner of the Skyline vs. Stadium game underway now.  (Need a score update for the Skyline game from someone who knows!)

It could be an all Sammamish final if Skyline wins, as both Eastlake and Skyline occupy the Sammamish Plateau in East King County.  Believe this would be Skyline's first trip to the finals.  Eastlake has taken it all, but not for quite a while.  Best finish for Eastlake in recent times was their 3rd place finish in 2008.

[Game Face]

It will be an all Sammamish State final for the Boys 4A championship.  Eastlake vs Skyline at 4pm at Harry Lang Stadium, Sat. 5-28-2011.

Eastlake Wolves beat Kentwood 2-1 in the 6 pm game, and Skyline Spartans outlasted defending state champion Stadium High 3-2 in the 8 pm game.

See the Boys soccer 4A bracket and finals game times at http://www.wiaa.com/Brackets/T22-20110527222603.pdf

Bainbridge plays Camas at 2 pm for the 3A title.  You can also see the 3A bracked and game times at http://www.wiaa.com/Brackets/T23-20110527181909.pdf

[Str8red]

Colossal GK errors cost Stadium. Leading 2-1, he pulled a Rob Green and let a slow roller get through his legs and across the goal line for the Skyline equalizer. Then, with about five minutes left he tried to punch clear a ball into the area but only made partial contact. The ball wound up with Skyline attacker who buried it.

[Game Face]

It will be an all Sammamish State final for the Boys 4A championship.  Eastlake vs Skyline at 4pm at Harry Lang Stadium, Sat. 5-28-2011.

Eastlake Wolves beat Kentwood 2-1 in the 6 pm game, and Skyline Spartans outlasted defending state champion Stadium High 3-2 in the 8 pm game.

See the Boys soccer 4A bracket and finals game times at http://www.wiaa.com/Brackets/T22-20110527222603.pdf

Bainbridge plays Camas at 2 pm for the 3A title.  You can also see the 3A bracked and game times at http://www.wiaa.com/Brackets/T23-20110527181909.pdf

Eastlake won the state title back to back in 1996 and 1997, but hasn't been back to the finals since then.  See past Champions list at this pull down menu link http://www.wiaa.com/ardisplay.aspx?ID=474

Camas is no stranger to the 3A title, having won in both 2006 and 2008, and was runner up in 2007.  See past 3A champs at http://www.wiaa.com/ardisplay.aspx?ID=474

[Game Face]

Colossal GK errors cost Stadium. Leading 2-1, he pulled a Rob Green and let a slow roller get through his legs and across the goal line for the Skyline equalizer. Then, with about five minutes left he tried to punch clear a ball into the area but only made partial contact. The ball wound up with Skyline attacker who buried it.

Thanks for the additional details.  Couldn't see the Skyline / Stadium game in person and the Seattle Times was in no hurry to post results.  Stadium was defending champs so this has to be seen as an upset.

[Game Face]

Kent Reporter has a nice write up and photo about tonight's semifinal:  Eastlake derails Kentwood | BOYS SOCCER

http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/south_king/ken/sports/122762239.html

[EWSoccer64]

I hear that Camas may well be better than any of the 4A schools.  Are they really outstanding?

[Mossback]

Colossal GK errors cost Stadium. Leading 2-1, he pulled a Rob Green and let a slow roller get through his legs and across the goal line for the Skyline equalizer. Then, with about five minutes left he tried to punch clear a ball into the area but only made partial contact. The ball wound up with Skyline attacker who buried it.

Thanks for the additional details.  Couldn't see the Skyline / Stadium game in person and the Seattle Times was in no hurry to post results.  Stadium was defending champs so this has to be seen as an upset.

Stadium lost eight or nine starting seniors from last years championship team. Many were academy players.  They were not even suppose to be on the map at the begining of this season. Last night was an unfortunate ending,  but they turned this season into an entertaining ride. Congrats on a fine season Stadium.  And good luck to Skyline this evening. 

[plentyofgames]

I hear that Camas may well be better than any of the 4A schools.  Are they really outstanding?

Probably not, but they're good and have a lot of good players on both Oregon and Washington club teams. They're definitely not a fluke.