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CAP - second stage of development
« on: May 16, 2011, 11:47:24 AM »

The CAP program is currently poised for its second stage of development: player evaluation. Since teams are, by default, collections of players, the CAP value of the team is a composite of its players values. Too often the measurables of a player are valued over the sometimes imperceptible, gradual influence a player may have on the chemistry and performance of a team. If a player does not routinely score goals, defend goals, have a great 40 time, impressive athleticism, etc. it is easy in our current format for that player to be overlooked. Who would think that a slower, portly, left footed only player could lift a national team to a World Cup (Maradona)? Are we truly measuring intangibles effectively or tossing them out for „hard evidence? that only matters today, not tomorrow? CAP can, by extension begin the process of measuring the impact that a player, or sets of players, or coaches, have on the performance of a team relative to their level of play.

Once this part of the system (individual player notation) has been invoked, we will be able to have CAP complete in its balancing metric. Since each team is a composite of its players, as those players participate the expectations for that team change (and so does the CAP) relative to the competition.
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KC_Dad

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2011, 01:22:57 PM »

The CAP program is currently poised for its second stage of development: player evaluation. Since teams are, by default, collections of players, the CAP value of the team is a composite of its players values. Too often the measurables of a player are valued over the sometimes imperceptible, gradual influence a player may have on the chemistry and performance of a team. If a player does not routinely score goals, defend goals, have a great 40 time, impressive athleticism, etc. it is easy in our current format for that player to be overlooked. Who would think that a slower, portly, left footed only player could lift a national team to a World Cup (Maradona)? Are we truly measuring intangibles effectively or tossing them out for „hard evidence? that only matters today, not tomorrow? CAP can, by extension begin the process of measuring the impact that a player, or sets of players, or coaches, have on the performance of a team relative to their level of play.

Once this part of the system (individual player notation) has been invoked, we will be able to have CAP complete in its balancing metric. Since each team is a composite of its players, as those players participate the expectations for that team change (and so does the CAP) relative to the competition.

Given certain players I'm aware of that bring some of these immeasurables to the team, I'm curious how this information is recorded. For example, a player receives a pass in a crowd, but makes the sweet turn and makes the perfect through-ball 15 yards up the field onto a forward's foot who makes the cross to another forward who kicks the goal. The goal and the assist are obvious, and EVERYONE will cheer that cross and score. Yet, no one even remembers where the ball came from. But it was the through-ball in the crowd that made it happen. How is that recorded and weighted against the cross and the score?

We've also all seen the examples of players who get the accolades on a team as the scorer and then move to teams and don't meet expectations. Yet the old team seems to produce a new player that seems to fill the void perfectly. Was it the player, or the team around the player that made that player look like a star? Yes, how do we measure the contributions of the players who do it with solid passes, good field sense, patience and imagination that 'leads' to the successful attack?

And here we are again, looking at an algorithm embedded with weightings, assumptions, decisions. I'd sure like to see such an algorithm, if only  to better understand what value the powers that be place on the different aspects of the individual player's game.

It would seem a lot of video recording and post-match review would be necessary to get beyond the assist and goal mentality.
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2011, 01:30:04 PM »

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

The CAP program is currently poised for its second stage of development: player evaluation. Since teams are, by default, collections of players, the CAP value of the team is a composite of its players values. Too often the measurables of a player are valued over the sometimes imperceptible, gradual influence a player may have on the chemistry and performance of a team. If a player does not routinely score goals, defend goals, have a great 40 time, impressive athleticism, etc. it is easy in our current format for that player to be overlooked. Who would think that a slower, portly, left footed only player could lift a national team to a World Cup (Maradona)? Are we truly measuring intangibles effectively or tossing them out for „hard evidence? that only matters today, not tomorrow? CAP can, by extension begin the process of measuring the impact that a player, or sets of players, or coaches, have on the performance of a team relative to their level of play.

Once this part of the system (individual player notation) has been invoked, we will be able to have CAP complete in its balancing metric. Since each team is a composite of its players, as those players participate the expectations for that team change (and so does the CAP) relative to the competition.

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2011, 01:58:46 PM »

In summary, statistical evaluation of our competitive structures can only enhance our capacity to provide deeper, longer lasting competitive pools of play that in turn reward the organizations willing to invest the time to inspect their current processes. The first wave of statistical analysis, promoted among professional teams throughout the world, is just now trickling down to our youth levels. By aligning the methods with developmental principles we are ensuring that we don?t mimic professional models inappropriately and threaten the growth and enjoyment of our sport.
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KC_Dad

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2011, 02:03:51 PM »

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2011, 02:08:26 PM »

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.

Somebody enlighten me here. Isn't your coach providing the input to your player in place of some CAP silliness? Aren't you dopes getting regular evaluations? Doesn't your kid know exacly where they stand based upon coach's input? If not, somebody ain't doing their f*&*&ing job!
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2011, 02:35:07 PM »

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.

Somebody enlighten me here. Isn't your coach providing the input to your player in place of some CAP silliness? Aren't you dopes getting regular evaluations? Doesn't your kid know exacly where they stand based upon coach's input? If not, somebody ain't doing their f*&*&ing job!

Read these statements very carefully, this should put to rest any questions regarding the sanity of the people running the RCL/Pdl/wys.
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2011, 02:53:54 PM »

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.

Somebody enlighten me here. Isn't your coach providing the input to your player in place of some CAP silliness? Aren't you dopes getting regular evaluations? Doesn't your kid know exacly where they stand based upon coach's input? If not, somebody ain't doing their f*&*&ing job!

Read these statements very carefully, this should put to rest any questions regarding the sanity of the people running the RCL/Pdl/wys.

And that statement, my friend, runs a very close second to "Test post, please ignore...." in terms of inanity and lack of content...
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2011, 03:00:41 PM »

I think there is some serious leg pulling going on here.   This discussion has admitted to measuring the immeasurable.   Next we will talk about "infinity times infinity" being greater than infinity cubed.

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2011, 03:05:43 PM »

I think there is some serious leg pulling going on here.   This discussion has admitted to measuring the immeasurable.   Next we will talk about "infinity times infinity" being greater than infinity cubed.

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.

So I've been conned? Good thing I'm not running anything.  ::)
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2011, 03:36:52 PM »

I think there is some serious leg pulling going on here.   This discussion has admitted to measuring the immeasurable.   Next we will talk about "infinity times infinity" being greater than infinity cubed.

Ain't gonna happen.   So no use sweating about it.

Just thinking it would be a great educational tool. Most CPs, myself included, don't know the relative value of the immeasurables when compared to the goals, assists, and the great defensive plays. Those with kids who don't score goals, make assists, or stop the attack singlehandedly struggle with placing a value on the nice turn, perfect pass, assist to the assist, smart switch, defensive marking, etc. Such a formula that 2-Cents was implying would help with that. It might even help CAP rebuild some credibility after the debacle of this last year of secrecy and erroneous results. If such a formula was released, discussed, debated, and its value was evaluated and marketed before some authority just implements it, just maybe people would be responsive to it.

Might take a couple years to do it that way, and that's probably why it's not done that way.

So I've been conned? Good thing I'm not running anything.  ::)

I think somebody has been conned!

PAGE 5 AND 6
"CAP Release PDF"

http://www.wsysa.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=uwrRCZezQgc%3d&tabid=79&language=en-US

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2011, 03:58:53 PM »

The CAP score took root behind the closed doors of the PDL. This statement about using it to evaluate players is from that era.

It's clear from the opening statement, which appears to have been simply tacked on to the earlier paper, that the scheme didn't stand up to wider scrutiny post-PDL:

"Washington Youth?s Technical Director and Competitive Programs Advisor, with requests from the Regional Club DOC?s and select level coaches, have reviewed the Competitive Placement Algorithm in its execution and determined that is has not met the internal benchmarks for success that were expected."

Interpretation: The CAP is dead.

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2011, 04:00:22 PM »

The CAP program is currently poised for its second stage of development: player evaluation. Since teams are, by default, collections of players, the CAP value of the team is a composite of its players values. Too often the measurables of a player are valued over the sometimes imperceptible, gradual influence a player may have on the chemistry and performance of a team. If a player does not routinely score goals, defend goals, have a great 40 time, impressive athleticism, etc. it is easy in our current format for that player to be overlooked. Who would think that a slower, portly, left footed only player could lift a national team to a World Cup (Maradona)? Are we truly measuring intangibles effectively or tossing them out for „hard evidence? that only matters today, not tomorrow? CAP can, by extension begin the process of measuring the impact that a player, or sets of players, or coaches, have on the performance of a team relative to their level of play.

Once this part of the system (individual player notation) has been invoked, we will be able to have CAP
complete in its balancing metric. Since each team is a composite of its players, as those players participate the expectations for that team change (and so does the CAP) relative to the competition.


Never clear if 2cents is making a point, but there are team ranking systems that use roster information as an input. espn's is an example. It's relevant because national teams often are playing without their best roster on the field.

Of course, wys' homegrown CAP monstrosity rarely gets even the basics right and is in no position to be assigned to more ambitious problems. Another good idea doomed by incompetent execution.
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2011, 05:44:38 PM »

This is nonsense.  There is no way to measure a players impact on a team other than the imperfect method of having an auction and organizations bid on the services of that player.  And even that method is imperfect and subjugective, both in terms of evaluation and impact since it is team specific not generic.

The CAP program is currently poised for its second stage of development: player evaluation. Since teams are, by default, collections of players, the CAP value of the team is a composite of its players values. Too often the measurables of a player are valued over the sometimes imperceptible, gradual influence a player may have on the chemistry and performance of a team. If a player does not routinely score goals, defend goals, have a great 40 time, impressive athleticism, etc. it is easy in our current format for that player to be overlooked. Who would think that a slower, portly, left footed only player could lift a national team to a World Cup (Maradona)? Are we truly measuring intangibles effectively or tossing them out for „hard evidence? that only matters today, not tomorrow? CAP can, by extension begin the process of measuring the impact that a player, or sets of players, or coaches, have on the performance of a team relative to their level of play.

Once this part of the system (individual player notation) has been invoked, we will be able to have CAP complete in its balancing metric. Since each team is a composite of its players, as those players participate the expectations for that team change (and so does the CAP) relative to the competition.

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swinginrichard

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2011, 07:16:57 PM »

Am I the only one who"s kinda PO'ed that this is what our upper echelon is wasting their time on? I'm assuming the "white paper" means it was issued by Gary White but I may be mistaken.
Seriously, US Club anyone?
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EWSoccer64

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2011, 07:26:47 PM »

The document was "written" by Todd Lincoln, at least his name is on it.    And there are many questionable (polite for flat out wrong) assertations within it.   

But the kicker is now that the CrAP is dead, what are they going to replace it with?
Betcha the RCL subCommittee appoints a committee of DoCs to place teams.   Bernie, Greg and Co., back in business.

Anyone got a wooden stake, a clove of garlic and some Holy Water?
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2011, 07:35:31 PM »

Modern statistical analysis is just starting to come to soccer. I expect the model to follow very closely the evolution of statistics in baseball.

ERA 1 - Counting numbers (batting average, home runs, hits, strike outs, errors)
ERA 2 - Advanced numbers (ERA, slugging %, OBP)
ERA 3 - Derived numbers (OPS, zone rating)
ERA 4 - Analysis that flies counter to intuition (batted balls put into play that result in hits, fielding independent ERA)

You've already seen the counting numbers used in evaluating soccer ability (goals, assists, shutouts), we've started to see some of the advanced numbers come into play (possession, ground covered, completed passes) and I expect that the smarter clubs are already looking at derived numbers in their front offices.

Remember that the real key here is not to use these stats to determine the "best player", they are used by smart clubs to look for skills that are undervalued in the current market. Skills that can be obtained at a cheaper cost than other relative skills. Right now, there is little incentive for the rich clubs to use statistics to gain an advantage. They can simply spend more money than their competitors to get the best players. The new FIFA rules on fiscal responsibility will start to curb that a bit in the upcoming years. The big leaps in analysis will come from the lower level clubs who need to spend their money wisely, thus acquiring a skill at a below market cost becomes a competitive advantage.  

Read Moneyball by Michael Lewis for a great example of this. When you read it take into account that the book is not about the baseball draft of that year, nor is it about the battle between traditional scouting and modern analysis. It's about looking searching for a competitive edge in a market.
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swinginrichard

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2011, 08:09:52 PM »

The document was "written" by Todd Lincoln, at least his name is on it.    And there are many questionable (polite for flat out wrong) assertations within it.    

But the kicker is now that the CrAP is dead, what are they going to replace it with?
Betcha the RCL subCommittee appoints a committee of DoCs to place teams.   Bernie, Greg and Co., back in business.

Anyone got a wooden stake, a clove of garlic and some Holy Water?
Looks to me like the response? was written by Lincoln, dated 5-13. As in a response to the writer. The other 11 pages are dated 5-11. So I'm assuming it was written by the Tech Director (GW). May be wrong though.
And in answer to your question regarding replacing......LPT's anyone?
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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2011, 12:16:41 AM »

Modern statistical analysis is just starting to come to soccer. I expect the model to follow very closely the evolution of statistics in baseball.

ERA 1 - Counting numbers (batting average, home runs, hits, strike outs, errors)
ERA 2 - Advanced numbers (ERA, slugging %, OBP)
ERA 3 - Derived numbers (OPS, zone rating)
ERA 4 - Analysis that flies counter to intuition (batted balls put into play that result in hits, fielding independent ERA)

You've already seen the counting numbers used in evaluating soccer ability (goals, assists, shutouts), we've started to see some of the advanced numbers come into play (possession, ground covered, completed passes) and I expect that the smarter clubs are already looking at derived numbers in their front offices.

Remember that the real key here is not to use these stats to determine the "best player", they are used by smart clubs to look for skills that are undervalued in the current market. Skills that can be obtained at a cheaper cost than other relative skills. Right now, there is little incentive for the rich clubs to use statistics to gain an advantage. They can simply spend more money than their competitors to get the best players. The new FIFA rules on fiscal responsibility will start to curb that a bit in the upcoming years. The big leaps in analysis will come from the lower level clubs who need to spend their money wisely, thus acquiring a skill at a below market cost becomes a competitive advantage.  

Read Moneyball by Michael Lewis for a great example of this. When you read it take into account that the book is not about the baseball draft of that year, nor is it about the battle between traditional scouting and modern analysis. It's about looking searching for a competitive edge in a market.


The minute I read your first sentence I thought "this guy read Moneyball...". You're right, Soccer statistics are still in their infancy compared with the way Baseball uses them to value players. The big question is whether this disparity is a surmountable obstacle related to the novelty of applying statistics to soccer, or whether the very nature of the game makes it difficult to create meaningful statistics in the way that can be done for baseball.

Slate did an excellent article touching on this http://www.slate.com/id/2282752.

One important point is that the ability to apply statistics to sports is directly related to the quantity and quality of data available. With regard to amateur athletics, even if we knew what statistics to keep, it seems highly unlikely to me in the near term we will be able to gather and analyze sufficient data in a cost effective fashion to routinely use it to evaluate junior players.

By the way, for parents of goalies with an intellectual bent, there are a couple of interesting articles on penalty kicks, the success or failure of which are easily measured from a statistical perspective:

http://www.slate.com/id/2144182/
http://www.slate.com/id/2259927/
http://www.cos.edu/economics/Assets/MPRA_paper_4477.pdf

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Soccer Wonk

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2011, 12:59:56 AM »

The document was "written" by Todd Lincoln, at least his name is on it.    And there are many questionable (polite for flat out wrong) assertations within it.    

But the kicker is now that the CrAP is dead, what are they going to replace it with?
Betcha the RCL subCommittee appoints a committee of DoCs to place teams.   Bernie, Greg and Co., back in business.

Anyone got a wooden stake, a clove of garlic and some Holy Water?
Looks to me like the response? was written by Lincoln, dated 5-13. As in a response to the writer. The other 11 pages are dated 5-11. So I'm assuming it was written by the Tech Director (GW). May be wrong though.
And in answer to your question regarding replacing......LPT's anyone?

The fundamental ideas underlying this document are traceable to an article that appeared in Play On! back in 2006. The base data is from 2006. It appears that in its earliest incarnation, the document was designed to show why the PDL's placement system based on their RPI algorithm was superior to LPT's.

The header on page two (following the slapped-on frontspiece) indicates that it was last revised in 2010, apparently based on data from the 2009 season (which appears as an addendum to the appendix.) Purpose at that time was apparently to justify continuing the PDL's former RPI algorithm under a revised algorithm termed CAP for the RCL.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2011, 01:41:42 AM »

It is simply insane to think that any meaningful player evaluation system will be, can be, derived from statistical data.    As previously pointed out, even what information should be collected is an unkown, but so is how to collect it and how to evaluate it.  And then to massage it into a player rating is simply insane.
Baseball pretty much exists for stats.   But I have yet to see a stat that measures the difficulty of catching a fly ball.  Or of how many double plays a player has broken up or the difficulty in beaking them up.
Let's look at a simple player-possession sequence.  A player recieves the ball, moves it ten yard by dribbling, and then passes it to a team mate.   Objective data can be found in - success or failure in trapping the ball, distance dribbled, maintaining possession or losing possession in the dribble, success or failure in the pass, and distance of the pass.  The key components of the difficulty in recieving the pass successfully, in evading opposition during the dribble, the quality of the opposition as well as their numbers (and distance from the player in possession does alone not determine if the opponent is actively opposing), and then the pass from the player in possession - Right choice?  best choice available?  Wrong choice?  difficulty of the pass, speed, indentification of the teammate's tactical plan upon reception (to lead or not to lead?), Pass to feet or other part of the body?  Opposition to the pass?
And we are not even getting into the more difficult to quantitize off the ball data.

The last time I had a game analysed by a service, the info was not nearly that complete, and that was $150 per game, from a single camera angle.  To get even half the stats required for any sort of half assed system would require multiple cameras, myriad subjective evaluations by different individuals, and many, many man hours.   Perhaps it could be done for under $700 per match, but I doubt it.  And that is per team per match.   Even at only 40 games a season, that is $28,000.   Anyone feel like paying an extra $1,500 a year per kid to have personalized stats of dubious quality? 

Of course, coaches only work afternoons or evenings then a few hours a weekend.  Perhaps Big Clubs could set up an inhouse video review of games for stat purposes.  Another 20 hours of morning work a week for coaches who otherwise might have to get day jobs, say at $40 per hour.   That would give them the time to properly review maybe two matches a week, for $800.  There would also be the costs of video taping the matches, from (just as an example) 3 different perspectives.   The equipment to synchronize the showing of the film, so that the 3 gamefilms are running at the same time.  So that is 6 hours of videographer time - again, per match.

Would all this data be useful?  Certainly, all data is useful.   Would the utility be worth the costs?   Not even within an order of magnitude.

The idea of meaningul personal stats is ludicrous.  I once had a GK who had 320 saves in a HS season, all from legit shots on goals.  But our team was weak, most of the girls had never played soccer before, and our defensive gameplan was to pack the penalty area and encourage the opponents to shoot from outside it.   On another team, one with experience and quality, a championship caliber team, she would have had an average of 3-5 saves a game.   And a lower GAA.   

Unless the idea of personal stats is just another ploy to employ ever more "youth soccer professionals" this is an absolute joke.
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tripleplay

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2011, 02:48:03 AM »

It is simply insane to think that any meaningful player evaluation system will be, can be, derived from statistical data. 


It's typical of the innumerate to believe that things are inherently unquantifiable simply because they personally lack the numerical proficiency to do it themselves.
A real world example: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/4447078/ce/us/guide-espn-spi-ratings?cc=5901&ver=us

I actually agree with EW that there is little immediate need to use such a system in youth soccer. However, a properly done CAP could have been useful in division formation.
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Bathos

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2011, 11:15:04 AM »

Remember that the real key here is not to use these stats to determine the "best player", they are used by smart clubs to look for skills that are undervalued in the current market. Skills that can be obtained at a cheaper cost than other relative skills.

There's also some interesting insight into this topic in Soccernomics.

It seems the key is as mentioned in the above quote - these statistics are used to discover skills that are relatively undervalued in the player transfer market by big clubs, like the search by market analysts to find relatively undervalued metrics which are predictive of future stock price.  It doesn't say they're more accurate or effective, just not as 'discovered' by competitors and so are a way to gain an advantage.

The utility of these kinds of analytics for youth soccer development seems, to put it mildly, unproven.

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EWSoccer64

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2011, 12:40:48 PM »

It is typical of people who have no real knowledge of soccer to believe that so many of the important areas of the game and the players abilities can be translated into subjective statistics, and these would have meaning.  TP is a classic example.

It is simply insane to think that any meaningful player evaluation system will be, can be, derived from statistical data. 


It's typical of the innumerate to believe that things are inherently unquantifiable simply because they personally lack the numerical proficiency to do it themselves.
A real world example: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/4447078/ce/us/guide-espn-spi-ratings?cc=5901&ver=us

I actually agree with EW that there is little immediate need to use such a system in youth soccer. However, a properly done CAP could have been useful in division formation.
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tripleplay

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2011, 12:57:10 PM »

Remember that the real key here is not to use these stats to determine the "best player", they are used by smart clubs to look for skills that are undervalued in the current market. Skills that can be obtained at a cheaper cost than other relative skills.

There's also some interesting insight into this topic in Soccernomics.

It seems the key is as mentioned in the above quote - these statistics are used to discover skills that are relatively undervalued in the player transfer market by big clubs,

Actually ratings exist in all kinds of amateur activities and often have very practical uses.(they were first used in chess and are common throughout the gaming world.) Most obviously in soccer they can be used for division and tournament placement and can make competitions better. The cost of providing competition is relatively fixed (travel + field + ref + coach + time) but the value of a game can vary enormously (a 10-0 blow out is worth far less than a 1-1 tie). So to increase value in the sport, you need to focus on creating good match ups.

For unclear reasons, those behind CAP rejected sound analytical principles and came up with a system that was generally inferior to rankings that appear on this blog that often combine subjective and objective elements. I speculate that a purely objective soccer ranking system could easily be as useful as the objective chess ranking system, but it would require a similar level of care and expertise to develop. To me this would be the perfect type of project for USYS to undertake since the methodology could be useful in every single state. The cost of implementing an automated and objective system is almost zero.
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swinginrichard

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2011, 01:04:06 PM »

It is typical of people who have no real knowledge of soccer to believe that so many of the important areas of the game and the players abilities can be translated into subjective statistics, and these would have meaning.  TP is a classic example.

It is simply insane to think that any meaningful player evaluation system will be, can be, derived from statistical data.  


It's typical of the innumerate to believe that things are inherently unquantifiable simply because they personally lack the numerical proficiency to do it themselves.
A real world example: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-cup/story/_/id/4447078/ce/us/guide-espn-spi-ratings?cc=5901&ver=us

I actually agree with EW that there is little immediate need to use such a system in youth soccer. However, a properly done CAP could have been useful in division formation.
I tend to concur. The downside of the over-educated is typically, over-complication of simple evaluation. Might be easier to just let em play...and watch.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 01:08:31 PM by swinginrichard »
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metz123

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2011, 01:15:43 PM »

It is simply insane to think that any meaningful player evaluation system will be, can be, derived from statistical data.    As previously pointed out, even what information should be collected is an unkown, but so is how to collect it and how to evaluate it.  And then to massage it into a player rating is simply insane.
Baseball pretty much exists for stats.   But I have yet to see a stat that measures the difficulty of catching a fly ball.  Or of how many double plays a player has broken up or the difficulty in beaking them up.


Now I know you mean well but statements like the above are ludicrous. History has shown that most observational statements like the above are quickly ground to dust in the face of actual science. It was insane to think that the earth was round, it was insane to think that all the planets revolved around the sun, it was insane to think that moldy bread could be the basis for medicine. Yet all were proven to be true.

The stats don't measure the difficulty of catching a fly ball, they measure who is the best at catching them, who reaches more of them and who prevents runners from advancing on them. More importantly it says if the skill is currently undervalued in the existing market. You'd be amazed at the technology being applied in sports today. Do you know what QUESTEC is? DO you have any idea what a modern video system can do in terms of tracking player movement? Do you know what the wonderlic test is?

The world of business is about exploiting market inefficiencies. The world of sports is big business. What's insane is to think that evaluation systems aren't being used today and that their influence won't filter downstream to youth sports.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2011, 02:17:41 PM »

It is simply insane to think that any meaningful player evaluation system will be, can be, derived from statistical data.    As previously pointed out, even what information should be collected is an unkown, but so is how to collect it and how to evaluate it.  And then to massage it into a player rating is simply insane.
Baseball pretty much exists for stats.   But I have yet to see a stat that measures the difficulty of catching a fly ball.  Or of how many double plays a player has broken up or the difficulty in beaking them up.


Now I know you mean well but statements like the above are ludicrous. History has shown that most observational statements like the above are quickly ground to dust in the face of actual science. It was insane to think that the earth was round, it was insane to think that all the planets revolved around the sun, it was insane to think that moldy bread could be the basis for medicine. Yet all were proven to be true.

The stats don't measure the difficulty of catching a fly ball, they measure who is the best at catching them, who reaches more of them and who prevents runners from advancing on them. More importantly it says if the skill is currently undervalued in the existing market. You'd be amazed at the technology being applied in sports today. Do you know what QUESTEC is? DO you have any idea what a modern video system can do in terms of tracking player movement? Do you know what the wonderlic test is?

The world of business is about exploiting market inefficiencies. The world of sports is big business. What's insane is to think that evaluation systems aren't being used today and that their influence won't filter downstream to youth sports.
Metz, take another look at the examples that I presented.  In the issue of fly balls, I allowed that the number caught is easily represented, but not the difficulty of the catch.
And such things as batting averages and number of catches is easily discerned.  Other than goals nothing in soccer is quite that simple.   Even the distance covered in a game is an incomplete stat as it does not measure the utility of the running. I am sure that we will agree that we have seen runners on the field that cover alot of ground but are never in the right place at the right time.  In fact, distnce covered may actually be a misleading stat, worse than useless.
And without real AIs, any computer system is going to be of very limited utility.
In terms of using a market system, that is the best available.  Rating players by money, from the purchasing club, for their specific situation.  However, that is not applicable to a youth system.  And all such ratings are really very subjective, as they are based upon the team needs rather than a statistical ranking.

This is not a "world is flat" debate, it is more that you cannot describe a taste by using colors.
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metz123

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2011, 03:06:12 PM »

And you would be wrong. UZR in fact measures the difficulty of a catch. They literally have people charting every bal hit to an outfielder in MLB, noting if it is a flyball, line drive or ground ball. They measure each spot on the field where a ball caught. 

Players that cover more ground and reach balls that others don't create more outs and are better than their peers. It's measurable but it takes an open mind to get there.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: CAP - second stage of development
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2011, 03:28:27 PM »

And you would be wrong. UZR in fact measures the difficulty of a catch. They literally have people charting every bal hit to an outfielder in MLB, noting if it is a flyball, line drive or ground ball. They measure each spot on the field where a ball caught. 

Players that cover more ground and reach balls that others don't create more outs and are better than their peers. It's measurable but it takes an open mind to get there.
How accurate is this UZR?  Not in terms of comparison to nothing, but in absolute accuracy?   Does it measure the tactical disposition of the outfield, the speed of the ball in flight, the angle of the sun, and how does it measure the swirling of the wind, if any?

And remember, even if all this could be accurately measured and noted, it is a far different situation than soccer which is a fluid game with active opposition.
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