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[EWSoccer64]

This topic is for the posters here, who seem to represent a broad spectrum of ideas and interests, to develop a comprehensive plan for the WSYSA.  The idea is for there to be a real place for everyone to play, to minimize unneccessary costs, and to promote development.  And let's face it, the "experts" at state and the RCL/PDL have been failing pretty abysmally at it.

Here is some ideas to start with -

Highest Level -
Academy for Boys, ECNL for Girls.   Any Club which wants to put such a team together can do so.   These teams are not eligible for any WSYSA tournaments.
A Two Division Premier League.   Each Division will have ten teams.  This will start at U-13, and continue through U-18.  U-19 will have a single division.
(Let's face it, if you aren't in the top 20 teams in the state, you really have no right to be called premier.  Or else, everyone can call themselves Premier)
District Leagues - Districts may combine leagues or certain age groups as they see fight.
Rec - Up through U-10.   Then at U-11, associations may allow district play.   At U-12, any club can offer district teams.   U-12 teams may play up to U-13 State.

State Cups -
Recreational Tournament - Held in Novemeber.   Rec teams only.
Select Cup - Held in Novemeber/early december.   District and Rec teams only.   Rec teams can play in either Rec or Select Cups.
State Open Cup - Played in May. (BOYS HS division in Jan/Feb) Open to every registered team in WSYSA, except Academy and ECNL.   Participants in Rec and Select Cups may participate.   Premier Teams are seeded in, everyone else is random.  If there are sufficient teams, then the there may be a preliminary group stage before the P-1 teams are placed in a second round group stage.
Non-WSYSA teams may register their players and team with a local club or association and participate if their local club or association allows them to.  No requirement for league play.   This does two things - it fosters better relations between WSYSA organizations and other soccer orgs at a local level.    It also provides a quality control measure.  It shows teams outside the WSYSA and it's Premier Play that they are below the Premier level.  Or it shows that the Premier level is not the top level.  Either way, that is important information.

RCL clubs can still do everything they claim makes them so great - They can insist on certain levels of liscensing, they can have paid coaches and paid administrators, they can be "professional", they can have their training academies, they set themselves up internally all they want.   The RCL DoCs can set the standards and only those they choose to allow in will be awarded the coveted "RCL" membership.   Heck, we can even have a special RCL badge to be worn on uniforms of RCL clubs.  No one else is allowed to wear it.   The RCL DoCs will not be allowed to set schedules, to make leagues, or to place teams.  Remember, the RCL/PDL DoCs have maintained that their system of professionalized youth soccer coaching, administration and standards is what makes them so great.   If the Big Clubs want to tier the RCL or downsize or expand, it is all up to them.   They can even charge an annual RCL fee that all the RCL clubs have to pay to the RCL DoC Committee.  Only those that meet their designations can wear the special badge. 

Criteria for placement in the Premier League?   
Two ways to do it -
The initial U-13 year will have to be done differently that subsequent years, because it is starting from scratch.
U-14 through U-18 years -   Bottom 3 teams from previous years First Division and the top five teams from Second Division will enter into a tournament (call it LPT) and the top 3 teams will be placed into Divison 1.  The bottom five from the LPT will be placed into Division 2. 
Note - The Winner of the State Open Cup will automatically earn a spot in the following year's Premier First Division.  If this is a team that is not already staying in the First Division of Premier, then the LPT will be to determine the TWO teams to enter into the First Division, not three.

The bottom five from the regular season of Division 2 will enter into a tournament with the district league champions of the seven districts.  Where districts have combined their leagues, the league will get an appropriate number of slots.  (If Districts 1,2,3 combine into a Puget Sound Select League, the PSSL will get 3 slots.).
Any team that wishes to enter but is not a District Champion may do so.   They may, at the requirement of the tournament committee, be required to "play in", that is to play preliminary qualification games.
These teams will enter into a tournament that will determine the TOP FOUR teams.   These four will be placed into the Premier League Second Division.

A month later, there will be another tournament, this one open to every team which wishes to enter, and the tournament champion will become the final team to enter Second Division of Premier play.

Why have two tournaments?   It allows for player movement from the teams that did not make it in the first tournament, it is a great fundraising gimmick, and it provides a chance for teams that may have been hit with illness or whatnot in the first tournament.  For those who whine about costs, a second chance tournament will provide some decent play and will be cheap compared to the costs of playing and paying for, Premier.

For the first seson of Premier, the District Champions of the U-12 District Leagues will be seeded.   As will the top five teams via a CAP score.  The tournament will be open to every other team which applies and is in good standing.  There will be no limit on the number of teams a single club or association or district can enter.  IF Crossfire wants to enter ten teams, they can.  If they all end up in P-1, then so be it.  Multiple teams from the same club will be spread out across the bracketing.

This tournament will set up so that 8 teams are chosen in the first tournament.  These will be Premier One teams.

The Second stage tournament will then be seeded based on the results of the First Stage Tournament.   This will select the final 2 First Division teams and the first six Second Division Teams.

The Third Stage Tournament will be unseeded (just because I like the random factor) and will select the final four teams to be placed into the Second Division.

There will be NO roster movement between the stages of the Initial Entry Tournament.   
There will be no Inter-District Leagues.   It will be Premier or District.   This will in theory encourage the top, more competitive players, to move to Premier teams or teams that are trying to become premier.   This achieves the consolidation of talent that the state and the RCL honchos want so desperately.
The stages of the each tournament can be held in different locations.

Districts may still have their own District Tournaments, and elect to award their seeded spots in tournaments to the winners of the District Tournament instead of the League Champions, or elect to have the two teams play off for the seeded spot.

HS age leagues will be played opposite season from the HS season.

The winner of the Select Cup will be the state entrant to the USYSA President's Cup, Region IV.   


Go ahead and pick at this plan, offer improvements, or entirely different plans.   I know that we can come up with a better plan than the state has, probably several of them.

[tripleplay]

Have to give EW credit for coming up with the only plan that makes the current WYS folks look good and wise!


1. Replace the informal requirement that 100% of club activity must be within association boundaries to 0%. Brings back clubs who were victims of association politics.
2. Let anyone form non-profit leagues however they want.
3. Sanction for state cup any league that (1) conforms with USYS regulations and (2) generates enough money for WYS to cover costs.
4. Run a quality state cup. Best fields, best refs. Strive for universality. Offer something to all levels of teams and codify the principle that any team can always play up.

[Old Dog]

Highest Level -
Academy for Boys, ECNL for Girls.   Any Club which wants to put such a team together can do so.   These teams are not eligible for any WSYSA tournaments.
Give you a +1 TP as you made me spit up my drink.... I never got past the opening line.

The State does not control either of those two leagues so this is all mute but EW I will play along and ask the question. Lets say I live in Brewster WA and I get (16) 15/16 years old boys together and I have a little to much hard apple cider one night and talk folks into wanting to play in the Academy, under your statement we should be able too because we want too......  Did I read that right?

[EWSoccer64]

1. Replace the informal requirement that 100% of club activity must be within association boundaries to 0%. Brings back clubs who were victims of association politics.
Geographic area boundaries are used because they make sense.  They aid in the funcitoning of clubs and associations, and enable infrastructure efforts.   They do not restrict player choices, players are free to cross boundaries.
Any club can always seek to join their local association.  If they meet the requirements, they can join.


2. Let anyone form non-profit leagues however they want.
Everyone is free to form non-profit leagues however they want.  However, if they want to be part of WSYSA, they must meet WSYSA rules. And USCS operations, the for profit ones, would not be eligible to join even under your interpretation.
3. Sanction for state cup any league that (1) conforms with USYS regulations and (2) generates enough money for WYS to cover costs.
My proposal would do away with the league requirement that you propose.   Why do you insist that a team have played in any league at all before going to a state cup?
4. Run a quality state cup. Best fields, best refs. Strive for universality. Offer something to all levels of teams and codify the principle that any team can always play up.
OK, there are three first rate soccer complexes in the state right now.  The new one up North of Seattle, the Spokane Valley, and the Tri-Cities.  You want to play all the games there?  Let's make sure that all of State Cup games are on grass, the way soccer should be played.

[EWSoccer64]

Highest Level -
Academy for Boys, ECNL for Girls.   Any Club which wants to put such a team together can do so.   These teams are not eligible for any WSYSA tournaments.
Give you a +1 TP as you made me spit up my drink.... I never got past the opening line.

The State does not control either of those two leagues so this is all mute but EW I will play along and ask the question. Lets say I live in Brewster WA and I get (16) 15/16 years old boys together and I have a little to much hard apple cider one night and talk folks into wanting to play in the Academy, under your statement we should be able too because we want too......  Did I read that right?

If they were accepted in an Academy league, then sure, why not?   Note that the WSYSA does not control the academy league, (as you pointed out).  If a team from Brewster got accepted, let them play.   They then become ineligible for any State Cups. 

My idea was for the State to simply recognize that these were higher order teams and leagues. 

Down the road, there might even be a club that springs up that fields only teams in InterState Leagues.  It's teams would all be beyond state control and oversite, pretty much.   Probably be a USCS Club entirely.  If such a creature emerges, then fine.

[footiefan]

The plan looks good for operating an great league for the clubs and associations.

However, the mess in WYSA is not a result of running the league, it came from the ongoing turf wars within the association.
I.e., which club is going to be the designated rcl club (KPYSA), which club is sanctioned for having the gaul to exist (dead club walking), the entire spokane valley mess...this list goes on and on.
When this board is more about coaching, development and great play, then we know that WYSA has it right.  When it is primarily about by-laws, turf wars and politics, WYSA is still screwed up.

So I agree completely, run a great league where teams get promoted for quality play, support field development and support soccer for all kids (not just the premier) and WYSA will be doing what it needs.  But as long as WYSA's primary goal is the monopolization of youth soccer, I'll put my money on U.S. club to create the better quality product in the long run.

[EWSoccer64]

I just realised what Old Dog was getting at.
Yes, with the pay-for-play for profit so called Academy Leagues being set up to line the pockets of those who run them, it would be possible for a team from Brewster to buy it's way into an Academy League.   My thought is - so what?  If they have more money than sense, let them go play in an interstate Academy League.

Highest Level -
Academy for Boys, ECNL for Girls.   Any Club which wants to put such a team together can do so.   These teams are not eligible for any WSYSA tournaments.
Give you a +1 TP as you made me spit up my drink.... I never got past the opening line.

The State does not control either of those two leagues so this is all mute but EW I will play along and ask the question. Lets say I live in Brewster WA and I get (16) 15/16 years old boys together and I have a little to much hard apple cider one night and talk folks into wanting to play in the Academy, under your statement we should be able too because we want too......  Did I read that right?

If they were accepted in an Academy league, then sure, why not?   Note that the WSYSA does not control the academy league, (as you pointed out).  If a team from Brewster got accepted, let them play.   They then become ineligible for any State Cups. 

My idea was for the State to simply recognize that these were higher order teams and leagues. 

Down the road, there might even be a club that springs up that fields only teams in InterState Leagues.  It's teams would all be beyond state control and oversite, pretty much.   Probably be a USCS Club entirely.  If such a creature emerges, then fine.

[EWSoccer64]

Cannot disagree with anything stated here.    And right now, the USCS growth rate seems to be continueing to climb.

The plan looks good for operating an great league for the clubs and associations.

However, the mess in WYSA is not a result of running the league, it came from the ongoing turf wars within the association.
I.e., which club is going to be the designated rcl club (KPYSA), which club is sanctioned for having the gaul to exist (dead club walking), the entire spokane valley mess...this list goes on and on.
When this board is more about coaching, development and great play, then we know that WYSA has it right.  When it is primarily about by-laws, turf wars and politics, WYSA is still screwed up.

So I agree completely, run a great league where teams get promoted for quality play, support field development and support soccer for all kids (not just the premier) and WYSA will be doing what it needs.  But as long as WYSA's primary goal is the monopolization of youth soccer, I'll put my money on U.S. club to create the better quality product in the long run.

[Old Dog]

Highest Level -
Academy for Boys, ECNL for Girls.   Any Club which wants to put such a team together can do so.   These teams are not eligible for any WSYSA tournaments.
Give you a +1 TP as you made me spit up my drink.... I never got past the opening line.

The State does not control either of those two leagues so this is all mute but EW I will play along and ask the question. Lets say I live in Brewster WA and I get (16) 15/16 years old boys together and I have a little to much hard apple cider one night and talk folks into wanting to play in the Academy, under your statement we should be able too because we want too......  Did I read that right?

If they were accepted in an Academy league, then sure, why not?   Note that the WSYSA does not control the academy league, (as you pointed out).  If a team from Brewster got accepted, let them play.   They then become ineligible for any State Cups.  

My idea was for the State to simply recognize that these were higher order teams and leagues.  

Correct, by your later post but not "buy in" My point EW was you said any team that wants to can put a team in, no precuser just apply, you made your statement clear by using the term accepted. So with that a follow up question. What is the difference between apply to the USDA for acceptance and applying to your hated RCL.

For the record, I believe and have said before we have too many RCL clubs which in turn has watered down the RCL and thus watered down the State league.

[EWSoccer64]

There are actually more than one Academy League.  And they are Interstate Leagues, nominally of a higher caliber of play than the highest of state league play.  That is the difference between them and any in-state competition or league.

Applying to be in an Academy league is one thing, being accepted is another.   Applying does not matter, only being accepted does.

>>> So with that a follow up question. What is the difference between apply to the USDA for acceptance and applying to your hated RCL.<<<

It should be noted that any attempt by WSYSA to categorize or rate the different Academy Leagues is doomed to dissent, debate and failure.  So the criteria is any Academy league.   Sounds fair enough?

And of course, it is presumed that the various Academy leagues/ECNL will be exercising some quality control.  If they start accepting all comers in the interest of profiteering, then we will see how many families want to pay the additional costs of belonging.

[tripleplay]

.
My proposal would do away with the league requirement that you propose.   Why do you insist that a team have played in any league at all before going to a state cup?

That is actually a USYS rule (look it up). I have no problem with it since it prevents the problem of all-star teams being formed solely for state cup. The problems arise because WYS insists on sanctioning only those leagues run by them or their subdivisions. There is no benefit to this policy. It just gives the insider politicians a perk (the power to be league czar) and does nothing to provide opportunities for players.

[EWSoccer64]

.
My proposal would do away with the league requirement that you propose.   Why do you insist that a team have played in any league at all before going to a state cup?

That is actually a USYS rule (look it up). I have no problem with it since it prevents the problem of all-star teams being formed solely for state cup. The problems arise because WYS insists on sanctioning only those leagues run by them or their subdivisions. There is no benefit to this policy. It just gives the insider politicians a perk (the power to be league czar) and does nothing to provide opportunities for players.


The state already allows all star teams to be formed up for state cups - Look at Crossfire in the U-19 category.   It can be done by replacing players on the current team with ringers for state cups.
And TP, you are welcome to start up the TP Open To Everyone State Cup with No Membership Requirements at All.  We will see how well it does.

[tripleplay]

1. Replace the informal requirement that 100% of club activity must be within association boundaries to 0%. Brings back clubs who were victims of association politics.
Geographic area boundaries are used because they make sense.  They aid in the funcitoning of clubs and associations, and enable infrastructure efforts.   They do not restrict player choices, players are free to cross boundaries.
Any club can always seek to join their local association.  If they meet the requirements, they can join.

WYS loses soccer providers because it allows local, parochial soccer politicians to decide whether a club can belong to the association. Since there is no freedom to enter as part of another association (because of the geography interpretation), all of the power is in the hands of local politicians, many of whom have a history of complete failure at providing soccer opportunities to the area they allegedly serve. Patently absurd.

My proposal does not do away with associations (not a bad idea but more radical), but it changes the balance of power. The  capricious, malicious associations would lose out to those associations who are looking out for the best interests of the soccer-playing public. There is no incentive for an association to do well because their monopoly is never at risk.

[tripleplay]

The state already allows all star teams to be formed up for state cups - Look at Crossfire in the U-19 category.   It can be done by replacing players on the current team with ringers for state cups.
And TP, you are welcome to start up the TP Open To Everyone State Cup with No Membership Requirements at All.  We will see how well it does.

Try reading more carefully. It is a USYS rule that teams playing in state cup play in a sanctioned league. (Which basically means that USYS gets some $$) I have no problem with that rule. The issue is WYS adding ridiculous membership requirements that have nothing to do with the purpose of the rule (preventing all-star teams).

For example, if you are a team of a certain age in D6 from a non-rcl club, the ONLY way you can play in State Cup is if you play in EWDOC's league. But EWDOC is not mentioned in the USYS bylaws or the WYS bylaws. He may be a fine person, but his "need" for leverage in getting teams to play his league is NOT a public good. It doesn't further the cause of youth soccer in any way whatsoever. WYS should sanction any and all leagues that meet the USYS requirements. WYS should be implementing USYS rules - not twisting the rules for the benefit of certain individuals.

[EWSoccer64]

As we have already seen, there are lots of ways to meet or get around the USYS league requiremnt.It is neigh on meaningless for this conversation.

The state already allows all star teams to be formed up for state cups - Look at Crossfire in the U-19 category.   It can be done by replacing players on the current team with ringers for state cups.
And TP, you are welcome to start up the TP Open To Everyone State Cup with No Membership Requirements at All.  We will see how well it does.

Try reading more carefully. It is a USYS rule that teams playing in state cup play in a sanctioned league. (Which basically means that USYS gets some $$) I have no problem with that rule. The issue is WYS adding ridiculous membership requirements that have nothing to do with the purpose of the rule (preventing all-star teams).

For example, if you are a team of a certain age in D6 from a non-rcl club, the ONLY way you can play in State Cup is if you play in EWDOC's league. But EWDOC is not mentioned in the USYS bylaws or the WYS bylaws. He may be a fine person, but his "need" for leverage in getting teams to play his league is NOT a public good. It doesn't further the cause of youth soccer in any way whatsoever. WYS should sanction any and all leagues that meet the USYS requirements. WYS should be implementing USYS rules - not twisting the rules for the benefit of certain individuals.

[EWDOC]

The state already allows all star teams to be formed up for state cups - Look at Crossfire in the U-19 category.   It can be done by replacing players on the current team with ringers for state cups.
And TP, you are welcome to start up the TP Open To Everyone State Cup with No Membership Requirements at All.  We will see how well it does.

Try reading more carefully. It is a USYS rule that teams playing in state cup play in a sanctioned league. (Which basically means that USYS gets some $$) I have no problem with that rule. The issue is WYS adding ridiculous membership requirements that have nothing to do with the purpose of the rule (preventing all-star teams).

For example, if you are a team of a certain age in D6 from a non-rcl club, the ONLY way you can play in State Cup is if you play in EWDOC's league. But EWDOC is not mentioned in the USYS bylaws or the WYS bylaws. He may be a fine person, but his "need" for leverage in getting teams to play his league is NOT a public good. It doesn't further the cause of youth soccer in any way whatsoever. WYS should sanction any and all leagues that meet the USYS requirements. WYS should be implementing USYS rules - not twisting the rules for the benefit of certain individuals.

Sorry, not my league...the league belongs to the members of District 6, was their league before they elected me and will be their league even when I am gone.  I don't require anyone play in the league, our league is open to any team that is a registered WYS or registered US Youth team, just like PSPL requires that any team be registered with US Club.  Plus, any non-rcl team can also play in any other WYS sanctioned league to play in state cup, not just ours. 

[Soccer Wonk]

Classic troll tactic. Tripletroll uses a response to EWSoccer64's post to mention EWDOC, to goad EWDOC into a response.

[tripleplay]

Sorry, not my league...the league belongs to the members of District 6, was their league before they elected me and will be their league even when I am gone.  I don't require anyone play in the league, our league is open to any team that is a registered WYS or registered US Youth team, just like PSPL requires that any team be registered with US Club.  Plus, any non-rcl team can also play in any other WYS sanctioned league to play in state cup, not just ours. 

Point is for many teams WYS makes no other leagues available, at least for select teams of a certain age. And whether you call it "District 6's league" or "EWDOC's league" isn't the point. Neither of those parties are mentioned in the USYS bylaws as meriting a league monopoly. That's a WYS addition which has no benefit to the soccer players of Washington State.

[Soccer Wonk]

[tripleplay]

As we have already seen, there are lots of ways to meet or get around the USYS league requiremnt.

No, what we've seen are teams meeting the league requirement as written.

Now you are partially right in that of Washington's 4 state cups, 2 have no national component and so for those WYS could accept all regular seasons teams regardless of league participation. One of the cups, the challenge cup, has only recently added a national component of dubious merit and could easily be run as a state tournament only. So for the majority of the teams entering state cup, the national requirements are not relevant. But for the Championship, they cannot be ignored without changing the national rules.

[EWDOC]

Classic troll tactic. Tripletroll uses a response to EWSoccer64's post to mention EWDOC, to goad EWDOC into a response.

[EWDOC]

Sorry, not my league...the league belongs to the members of District 6, was their league before they elected me and will be their league even when I am gone.  I don't require anyone play in the league, our league is open to any team that is a registered WYS or registered US Youth team, just like PSPL requires that any team be registered with US Club.  Plus, any non-rcl team can also play in any other WYS sanctioned league to play in state cup, not just ours. 

Point is for many teams WYS makes no other leagues available, at least for select teams of a certain age. And whether you call it "District 6's league" or "EWDOC's league" isn't the point. Neither of those parties are mentioned in the USYS bylaws as meriting a league monopoly. That's a WYS addition which has no benefit to the soccer players of Washington State.

What point?  How is the fact that we have a league, created by it's members for it's members, a monopoly?  Just because you say so? 

[tripleplay]

What point?  How is the fact that we have a league, created by it's members for it's members, a monopoly?  Just because you say so?  

Teams shouldn't have to play in your league to play in WYS, if they are willing and able to create an alternate league that complies with USYS regulations. That is the definition of the word monopoly, at least within USYS.

People like soccerwonk imply (without ever constructing a coherent argument) that the WYS policy of "monopolies for minions" is the only way. But, in the real world, it is not. California (South) does not form leagues or designate certain people as being allowed to create leagues. It sanctions all leagues that comply with a set of clear rules (insured etc.) which include, of course, complying with USYS rules. And yet they have soccer. In SoCal, one club cannot expel another club from the USYS because that club doesn't want competitors. And yet they have soccer.

Our system is propped up by individuals benefitting from their perks, not because it furthers the mission of the organization. People like soccerwonk come across as unaware that there are any interests other than those of the political insiders.