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[soccerstep]

Interesting pieces on an American's player development journey through the eyes of a mother. The first 2 of the 5 articles are up, it's pretty cool how matter of fact she is and even takes a jab at the US National team -

Part 1: American System, is it broken?
Part 2: The Egg Drill

[vms]

Interesting pieces on an American's player development journey through the eyes of a mother. The first 2 of the 5 articles are up, it's pretty cool how matter of fact she is and even takes a jab at the US National team -

Part 1: American System, is it broken?
Part 2: The Egg Drill

Watch Viet Nguyen train his boys versus a certain EFC coach who is highly regarded in our community to see this discrepancy first hand in WA youth soccer. The former taught my son who is playing college soccer more individual technical skills in one year than the other in 4...
The EFC coach has more silverware though...team winning is seen as the ultimate in our society much to the detriment of the individual, especially when parents drink the cool aid

[EWSoccer64]

WOW, vms comes on strong to mike!
Wish he was not so accurate though.  US soccer would be better off if he was wrong.
  to vms.

[wanderer]

If our kids did not need to compete outside the 50 states, we'd be fine. Unfortunately, we have to compete with others who have crafted and supported a development model that is more technical and fare more advanced for winning at the highest levels in the world.

So, the US system of soccer development does work in one sense. It provides a framework to compete in the US.  The wheels simply come off this vehicle at hte highest levels of the international game. And that is getting more apparent the more players and more money and more organizational structure we put into the US game with diminishing returns for our teams on the international stage.

[soccerstep]

Part 3: Stubborn Coaches

Great point wanderer, if soccer didn't exist outside of the US I'm sure most would follow MLS more closely and enjoy it more, but when you compare it to any top league in the world it pales in comparison. The fact is soccer does exist abroad and it's important to instill Reyna's new curriculum if we ever want to compete on the international stage.

[ThiKuBC]

Sorry - how are the Americans NOT competing internationally? You mean, they haven't won a WC??? Sweden, Denmark, Japan....they can't say they have either.

Yes, the u20's bombed out this year and haven't done great in the u20 WC but overall at the international level the Americans are doing fine - punching above their weight class in my opinion.

Don't worry - the Canadians are in the same developmental delay (and many would say so are the British Isles). So you aren't alone in these issues!

[goldengoal]

Sorry - how are the Americans NOT competing internationally? You mean, they haven't won a WC??? Sweden, Denmark, Japan....they can't say they have either.

Yes, the u20's bombed out this year and haven't done great in the u20 WC but overall at the international level the Americans are doing fine - punching above their weight class in my opinion.

Don't worry - the Canadians are in the same developmental delay (and many would say so are the British Isles). So you aren't alone in these issues!

how many players do we have in our youth soccer system vs those countries? I wonder- anyone know? we could compare population and realize that we have more, but using only those involved in soccer might be a better way to compare. Also do other countries seperate the systems like we do here? Rec, Select, RCL before they get to the big clubs?

[tripleplay]

These posts pop up all the time, the soccer equivalent of urban legends. Their origin is soccer parent subscribing to a soccer network and watching high level European games. Being a highly perceptive individual, he notices that the game that he is watching on TV is nothing like the game that his 11-year-old kid is playing. Obviously, he concludes, this is a SIGN THAT WE ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.

What that perceived wrongdoing is, of course, will vary from poster to poster. Theories go in and out of fashion like clothing styles and are rarely supported by a shred of factual evidence. Explanations run the gamut from too much focus on winning, too many games and not enough drills,  not playing the "perfect" rules, untrained coaching, too much coaching, too much coaching influence from country x (only country y really knows how to play!), and, of course, the perennial favorite that soccer costs too much, among others. Of course, the last one (cost) is the most popular because we are consumers and like all consumers want our purchases to cost less – thus making it a theory that conveniently aligns with nearly everybody’s self-interest.  

The reality, of course, is something else. The 11-year-old game is drastically different from the elite pro game because talent, skills, physical characteristics, and motivation for playing in the first place are dramatically different. The only comparisons that would make any sense at all would be to look at the games of other 11-year-olds. But guess what? They’re not on TV!

[wanderer]

We played visiting English and German teams when I was 12-14. Did not need to watch a TV to see first hand how they stuffed us at an early age.  And they were just club teams, not some Academy or professional feeder teams.

[wanderer]

Netherlands:
* 16M inhabitants (1/20th the size of US)
* ENTIRE youth population is less than 3.6M total.
* Youth soccer population of ~ 1M
* Men ranked #2 in world in soccer (FIFA)
* Women ranked #14 in world in soccer (FIFA)

USA:
* 311M inhabitants
* ENTIRE youth population over 70M total
* Youth soccer population ~ 3.5M (includes 3M in USYSA)
* Men ranked #22 in world in soccer (FIFA)
* Women ranked #1 in world in soccer (FIFA)

[tripleplay]

Netherlands:
* 16M inhabitants (1/20th the size of US)
* ENTIRE youth population is less than 3.6M total.
* Men ranked #2 in world in soccer (FIFA)
* Women ranked #14 in world in soccer (FIFA)

USA:
* 311M inhabitants
* ENTIRE youth population over 70M total, including 3M+ youth soccer players
* Men ranked #22 in world in soccer (FIFA)
* Women ranked #1 in world in soccer (FIFA)

Netherlands is richer than we are and has more resources per capita to spend on leisure activities such as soccer. And they take their soccer seriously. At 7 and 8 their kids are being scouted by Ajax and some of their parents have been preparing them for that for years. It's a different world.

Soccer is low status in the US, high in the Netherlands. That's what matters.

[wanderer]

Actually, the US and Netherlands per capita income are quite similar.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

In an April interview with Soccer America (http://www.youthsoccerfun.com/2011/04/coaching_still_a_boys_club.html), Miriam Hickey, the 2008 U.S. Youth Soccer adidas Competitive Coach of the Year, had this to say about the expense of US youth soccer vs rest of world such as the Netherlands (her home country):

"There, only the professional clubs and top amateur clubs have professional staff. Everybody else can do with volunteers, but the sport has been there for a 150 years. In my family everybody played. My uncles, my father, my grandfather. That’s how it is in every family. So you have knowledgeable people directing the sport and so you don’t spend a whole lot.

[EWSoccer64]

Wanderer, there you go again.  Your use of facts and logic have offended TP yet again.  Now he is going to go off and pout for a while.

Well Done! 

Actually, the US and Netherlands per capita income are quite similar.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

In an April interview with Soccer America (http://www.youthsoccerfun.com/2011/04/coaching_still_a_boys_club.html), Miriam Hickey, the 2008 U.S. Youth Soccer adidas Competitive Coach of the Year, had this to say about the expense of US youth soccer vs rest of world such as the Netherlands (her home country):

"There, only the professional clubs and top amateur clubs have professional staff. Everybody else can do with volunteers, but the sport has been there for a 150 years. In my family everybody played. My uncles, my father, my grandfather. That’s how it is in every family. So you have knowledgeable people directing the sport and so you don’t spend a whole lot.

[tripleplay]

Actually, the US and Netherlands per capita income are quite similar.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

In an April interview with Soccer America (http://www.youthsoccerfun.com/2011/04/coaching_still_a_boys_club.html), Miriam Hickey, the 2008 U.S. Youth Soccer adidas Competitive Coach of the Year, had this to say about the expense of US youth soccer vs rest of world such as the Netherlands (her home country):

"There, only the professional clubs and top amateur clubs have professional staff. Everybody else can do with volunteers, but the sport has been there for a 150 years. In my family everybody played. My uncles, my father, my grandfather. That’s how it is in every family. So you have knowledgeable people directing the sport and so you don’t spend a whole lot.

I agree with that and I never said that Netherlands used more paid professionals than we do.  But the point is that their "rec" soccer is similar to our "premier" soccer in terms of intensity, quality of coaching etc. Their volunteer coaches are better than our volunteer coaches (and probably many of our paid coaches) because of the sport's much higher status there. Point is that more resources are being put into the sport than here, even if they are donated. More players play harder and with more focus because of the sport's much higher status there. And their upper end of soccer is driven by a lucrative professional game and everybody knows the score. Those who are really good have something big to shoot for from an early age. Compare the number of soccer-obsessed 6 year olds in each country and I bet our 20:1 advantage evaporates.

[kameharem]

Wanderer, there you go again.  Your use of facts and logic have offended TP yet again.  Now he is going to go off and pout for a while.

Well Done! 

Actually, the US and Netherlands per capita income are quite similar.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

In an April interview with Soccer America (http://www.youthsoccerfun.com/2011/04/coaching_still_a_boys_club.html), Miriam Hickey, the 2008 U.S. Youth Soccer adidas Competitive Coach of the Year, had this to say about the expense of US youth soccer vs rest of world such as the Netherlands (her home country):

"There, only the professional clubs and top amateur clubs have professional staff. Everybody else can do with volunteers, but the sport has been there for a 150 years. In my family everybody played. My uncles, my father, my grandfather. That’s how it is in every family. So you have knowledgeable people directing the sport and so you don’t spend a whole lot.

doesn't that quote back up what 3play was saying? 

[wanderer]

I think 3play has good points.

The question is why in the US do we still believe the market for soccer players to be domestic?  Top world leagues are all international talent.  NBA is filled with foreign players.  MLB as well.  Likewise, youth soccer players can have a very good living playing overseas in soccer until such time as the professional game matures here. But, as 3play says, if they wait until U11 to figure this out on their own (that there is not a great standarized path from U11 forward), they are in fact playing catch up vs the rest of the world's youth.  It would be nice for families to know there is a future for top US athletes in this sport and it is on the international scene bu they have to get on a different path.

[tripleplay]

I think 3play has good points.

The question is why in the US do we still believe the market for soccer players to be domestic?  Top world leagues are all international talent.  NBA is filled with foreign players.  MLB as well.  Likewise, youth soccer players can have a very good living playing overseas in soccer until such time as the professional game matures here. But, as 3play says, if they wait until U11 to figure this out on their own (that there is not a great standarized path from U11 forward), they are in fact playing catch up vs the rest of the world's youth.  It would be nice for families to know there is a future for top US athletes in this sport and it is on the international scene bu they have to get on a different path.

As a nation, we're not internationally focussed. Most kids I know are not excited by the Sounders (or watching grass grow) so pro is not an objective. Like it or not, that hated team competition that for some reason upsets so many experts is a huge motivator.

I read the rest of the interview of the woman originally from the Netherlands you quoted and I think she made many great points, in particular the ones about having a level for all players and avoiding excessive travel - two of my recurring complaints about Washington.

[EWSoccer64]

One of the things that you are missing is that soccer internationally is like baseball or basketball used to be in the USA.  A sport of the masses, where the poor have a chance to make something of themselves.   Not for rich kids.   Pele had a single pair of shoes as a kid, he did not dare play in them.  He played in the streets and allies and vacant lots barefoot with his friends.  Not on artificial grass, under lights, with parents sipping $5 coffees and complaining about spending $10 grand a year on their ten year old's soccer costs.

Soccer in many ways is "higher status" in the US than it is elsewhere in the world.  The upper class couple in Europe or Argentina would be embarressed to say that their teenager is playing soccer and persuing dreams of playing it professionally.

[vms]

Thank god we don't live in Europe or Argentina

[Midfield General]

One of the things that you are missing is that soccer internationally is like baseball or basketball used to be in the USA.  A sport of the masses, where the poor have a chance to make something of themselves.   Not for rich kids.   Pele had a single pair of shoes as a kid, he did not dare play in them.  He played in the streets and allies and vacant lots barefoot with his friends.  Not on artificial grass, under lights, with parents sipping $5 coffees and complaining about spending $10 grand a year on their ten year old's soccer costs.

Soccer in many ways is "higher status" in the US than it is elsewhere in the world.  The upper class couple in Europe or Argentina would be embarressed to say that their teenager is playing soccer and persuing dreams of playing it professionally.

Not so sure that "not for rich kids" is true. In most European countries soccer is the primary sport by far, meaning it's the passion and therefore first choice sport for the vast majority of kids from all backgrounds. You therefore get the best athletes from all backgrounds making it to the higher levels. Consequently the typical pyramid demographics of most societies mean the "rich" will be proportionally represented in soccer, meaning fewer "rich kids" making it all the way.

Whatever development model you use, a major problem in the US is that you don't get all the best athletes picking soccer like they do in other countries. Despite the large numbers of youth soccer players, the very best athletes are likely to pick the major sports in the US due to better future opportunities, passion for other sports due to pro teams, tradition, and a whole host of other reasons that aren't going to change any time soon. As EW said, in Europe and S America it's a "sport for the masses" and usually the first choice for all the best athletes, rich or poor.

[EWSoccer64]

In Europe and South America, kids have to choose fairly early if they want to try to persue a career as a soccer professional or not.   And in the educational system, they choose (I'll use England and Germany as examples) if they want to go onto Universities or not by age 16.  There are seperate educational paths to follow.  Or simply stop your education at O levels and not persue A levels.  Upper Class kids do not persue the professional player track just like they do not persue the trade school track, they choose the University track and go for the abitur or the A levels.
   In a recent article, the director of La Maisa, the Barcelona academy, boasted that almost 20 % of the graduates play first division soccer and that an even greater number (but less than 50%) have gone on and gotten college degrees of some sort.  That is considered an extroardinarly large number for a football factory.

One of the things that you are missing is that soccer internationally is like baseball or basketball used to be in the USA.  A sport of the masses, where the poor have a chance to make something of themselves.   Not for rich kids.   Pele had a single pair of shoes as a kid, he did not dare play in them.  He played in the streets and allies and vacant lots barefoot with his friends.  Not on artificial grass, under lights, with parents sipping $5 coffees and complaining about spending $10 grand a year on their ten year old's soccer costs.

Soccer in many ways is "higher status" in the US than it is elsewhere in the world.  The upper class couple in Europe or Argentina would be embarressed to say that their teenager is playing soccer and persuing dreams of playing it professionally.

Not so sure that "not for rich kids" is true. In most European countries soccer is the primary sport by far, meaning it's the passion and therefore first choice sport for the vast majority of kids from all backgrounds. You therefore get the best athletes from all backgrounds making it to the higher levels. Consequently the typical pyramid demographics of most societies mean the "rich" will be proportionally represented in soccer, meaning fewer "rich kids" making it all the way.

Whatever development model you use, a major problem in the US is that you don't get all the best athletes picking soccer like they do in other countries. Despite the large numbers of youth soccer players, the very best athletes are likely to pick the major sports in the US due to better future opportunities, passion for other sports due to pro teams, tradition, and a whole host of other reasons that aren't going to change any time soon. As EW said, in Europe and S America it's a "sport for the masses" and usually the first choice for all the best athletes, rich or poor.

[Midfield General]

In Europe and South America, kids have to choose fairly early if they want to try to persue a career as a soccer professional or not.   And in the educational system, they choose (I'll use England and Germany as examples) if they want to go onto Universities or not by age 16.  There are seperate educational paths to follow.  Or simply stop your education at O levels and not persue A levels.  Upper Class kids do not persue the professional player track just like they do not persue the trade school track, they choose the University track and go for the abitur or the A levels.
   In a recent article, the director of La Maisa, the Barcelona academy, boasted that almost 20 % of the graduates play first division soccer and that an even greater number (but less than 50%) have gone on and gotten college degrees of some sort.  That is considered an extroardinarly large number for a football factory.

This is certainly true for the vast majority of kids, but my experience is that the few who are really good enough to excel will make it to the top wherever they are from. Where I grew up, the school system streamed the kids by exam at age 11 with the top 20 % at one school and the rest at three others. Everyone at our school was expected to follow the University path, while those at the other three schools would be expected to take the 'trade' path. Our school produced two England internationals and another premiership player yet no one from the other three schools made it past semi-pro. Nothing to do with the background - simply the best athletes in town chose football and made it to the top. Of course if they were in the US they may well have become baseball, football or basketball players.

[tripleplay]

One of the things that you are missing is that soccer internationally is like baseball or basketball used to be in the USA.  A sport of the masses, where the poor have a chance to make something of themselves.   Not for rich kids.   Pele had a single pair of shoes as a kid, he did not dare play in them.  He played in the streets and allies and vacant lots barefoot with his friends. 

While few would envy Pele's early life, in terms of soccer opportunities he was not lacking. He came from a soccer family and by his own account he played soccer for hours every day of his life. By 15 he was playing for a world class coach at a world class club. Even before that, he played in stadiums before crowds that only a handful of American soccer players experience. Point being that the status of soccer was so high in that culture that getting better at it was much more likely to occur than here, regardless of income level.

And the whole class warfare angle has little relevance. Many people attribute England's lack of success at the international level at least in part to the fact that soccer was marketed to the working class long after England had stopped being a working class nation. You have to appeal to the people you have. For better or worse, in the American 'burbs that means people who work in offices rather than mines and who can afford to buy lattes.

[EWSoccer64]

In Europe and South America, kids have to choose fairly early if they want to try to persue a career as a soccer professional or not.   And in the educational system, they choose (I'll use England and Germany as examples) if they want to go onto Universities or not by age 16.  There are seperate educational paths to follow.  Or simply stop your education at O levels and not persue A levels.  Upper Class kids do not persue the professional player track just like they do not persue the trade school track, they choose the University track and go for the abitur or the A levels.
   In a recent article, the director of La Maisa, the Barcelona academy, boasted that almost 20 % of the graduates play first division soccer and that an even greater number (but less than 50%) have gone on and gotten college degrees of some sort.  That is considered an extroardinarly large number for a football factory.

This is certainly true for the vast majority of kids, but my experience is that the few who are really good enough to excel will make it to the top wherever they are from. Where I grew up, the school system streamed the kids by exam at age 11 with the top 20 % at one school and the rest at three others. Everyone at our school was expected to follow the University path, while those at the other three schools would be expected to take the 'trade' path. Our school produced two England internationals and another premiership player yet no one from the other three schools made it past semi-pro. Nothing to do with the background - simply the best athletes in town chose football and made it to the top. Of course if they were in the US they may well have become baseball, football or basketball players.

Did these kids get past their O levels?

[EWSoccer64]

The point, TP, is that if Pele had been one of the sons of a Brasilian General, Ranch Owner, Politician or Industrialist, he would not have been in the enviroment or had the free time that he indeed had to develope his skills.
And you need to spend more time in England if you think there is not a significant working class still present.

But it nice to see that you inadvertently agree that the Pele development scenario really cannot be replicated in the USA.

One of the things that you are missing is that soccer internationally is like baseball or basketball used to be in the USA.  A sport of the masses, where the poor have a chance to make something of themselves.   Not for rich kids.   Pele had a single pair of shoes as a kid, he did not dare play in them.  He played in the streets and allies and vacant lots barefoot with his friends. 

While few would envy Pele's early life, in terms of soccer opportunities he was not lacking. He came from a soccer family and by his own account he played soccer for hours every day of his life. By 15 he was playing for a world class coach at a world class club. Even before that, he played in stadiums before crowds that only a handful of American soccer players experience. Point being that the status of soccer was so high in that culture that getting better at it was much more likely to occur than here, regardless of income level.

And the whole class warfare angle has little relevance. Many people attribute England's lack of success at the international level at least in part to the fact that soccer was marketed to the working class long after England had stopped being a working class nation. You have to appeal to the people you have. For better or worse, in the American 'burbs that means people who work in offices rather than mines and who can afford to buy lattes.

[Midfield General]

In Europe and South America, kids have to choose fairly early if they want to try to persue a career as a soccer professional or not.   And in the educational system, they choose (I'll use England and Germany as examples) if they want to go onto Universities or not by age 16.  There are seperate educational paths to follow.  Or simply stop your education at O levels and not persue A levels.  Upper Class kids do not persue the professional player track just like they do not persue the trade school track, they choose the University track and go for the abitur or the A levels.
   In a recent article, the director of La Maisa, the Barcelona academy, boasted that almost 20 % of the graduates play first division soccer and that an even greater number (but less than 50%) have gone on and gotten college degrees of some sort.  That is considered an extroardinarly large number for a football factory.

This is certainly true for the vast majority of kids, but my experience is that the few who are really good enough to excel will make it to the top wherever they are from. Where I grew up, the school system streamed the kids by exam at age 11 with the top 20 % at one school and the rest at three others. Everyone at our school was expected to follow the University path, while those at the other three schools would be expected to take the 'trade' path. Our school produced two England internationals and another premiership player yet no one from the other three schools made it past semi-pro. Nothing to do with the background - simply the best athletes in town chose football and made it to the top. Of course if they were in the US they may well have become baseball, football or basketball players.

Did these kids get past their O levels?

They didn't, but that's the whole point - they had the opportunity to go on to A levels and Uni and came from an upper class environment where that was the norm, but because of their talent they were found and developed. Didn't matter what social background they came from - they were the best athletes so made it to the top.

[tripleplay]

The point, TP, is that if Pele had been one of the sons of a Brasilian General, Ranch Owner, Politician or Industrialist, he would not have been in the enviroment or had the free time that he indeed had to develope his skills.
And you need to spend more time in England if you think there is not a significant working class still present.

But it nice to see that you inadvertently agree that the Pele development scenario really cannot be replicated in the USA.

As Brazil has become more affluent, so have the origins of its top players. It wasn't just the poor like Edson Arantes who were upset listening to Uruguay defeat Brazil in the World Cup final on the radio. It was the whole country.

If and when we care as much, we'll have a decent chance to win a world cup. Gimmicks and short cuts - whether being peddled by USYS politicians, local soccer clubs, or WPS' self-proclaimed experts like yourself - aren't going to work. It's a free country and no one wants to deprive you of your right to sell snake oil, but the prudent should not buy.

[EWSoccer64]

The point is that the Upper Class in Europe and SOuth America send their kids on the university track, not the professional soccer track.

And since those English boys of yours, Midfield General, never went past their O levels, they went onto the trade school track.    There are always a significant segment of people who start on the university track who do not make it.   I do not know if these kids you reference could have made it or not. 

But despite the examples you proffer, and accepting that they are exactly as touted, you must admit they are the exception rather than the rule.

[soccerstep]

Part 4 - Overseas adventure

Whether you agree with the decision or not, you gotta give it up to the kid for having the guts to make the jump across seas at such a young age.

[Midfield General]

The point is that the Upper Class in Europe and SOuth America send their kids on the university track, not the professional soccer track.

And since those English boys of yours, Midfield General, never went past their O levels, they went onto the trade school track.    There are always a significant segment of people who start on the university track who do not make it.   I do not know if these kids you reference could have made it or not. 

But despite the examples you proffer, and accepting that they are exactly as touted, you must admit they are the exception rather than the rule.

They were certainly not on the trade school track - taking latin, three languages, sciences, etc. they were firmly on the University track and would have stayed on that track if they hadn't been given the opportunity to go pro.

I think that rather than being an exception, they prove the rule that the best athletes get found and make it from whatever social background they come from. Although there are obviously always going to be fewer "rich kids" making it due to sheer numbers and the "ten thousand hour rule", in Europe the very best will make it as it's the major sport for the vast majority of kids. In the US the very best athletes, from whatever background, are not always going to chose soccer as it's likely not their passion given the other major sports over here. The kids I mentioned would likely have been the star quarterback, pitcher or point guard over here and never have been a soccer player.