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[EWSoccer64]

>>>>I didn't call your kid into anything. I mentioned the author's belief the kid might be shafted. I didn't say anything about the kid nor the kid's perceptions. But, you are awfully sensitive about this particular discussion. Odd as you seem to be very level otherwise. Why so passionate? <<<

Strange how you think that when someone does not like injustice, it is only because it happens to himself or his own.  Some of us actually get upset at injustice happening to others, too.  Not very shallow of us, I know, but that is the way we are.  You should try it sometime.  It will build up your moral fiber.   It can be very liberating to look at what is good and right for everyone instead of just yours.
One might say that you are awfully sensitive about being called THICKBC.  Why so passionate about being called thick?

[ThiKuBC]

Oh, I'm plenty Thick. That's not the issue! You still haven't explained why you bring all of this up though? I am not trying to attack ya, though you are taking it that way, which is unfortunate.

What injustice are you referring to in the switch from the Premier system to the current PDL system? I appreciate your having some intention to support those who suffer the injustice you perceive to be in the current system compared to the old one. Surely you'd understand why someone might believe you had a personal connection to the issue with which you are raising. Apologies if it seemed an attack. Just cynism.

Bravo in pointing out issues. But, are you doing anything about it other than posting here? I mean that genuinely. No one at Washington soccer is going to care about some post on a message board. Unless the intent is to start drumming up support to then start a #movement. Which would also be admirable if the desired change you see is in best interests of all. I guess the question then would be - "what qualifies you to seek/demand any change?" This would be the question of anyone starting a movement. For example, up here there is a new 12% tax on everything which eliminated the old tax system. This is now being challenged by a former premier of our province (equivalent to state rep). He is qualified to raise these issues.

In short, not attacking you. Seeking clarification of what change you are wanting, why the current way is bad, was the change ever needed in the first place, what are you doing to create the change you seek, and what qualifies you to do so?

You can speak eloquently about Washington soccer and I am trying to figure out why you believe all of this is such an issue.

Was the old way really better? Was there more benefit? These are things I couldn't tell you. Particularly interested in the chat as BC Soccer is going through a massive change at the highest levels of youth soccer.

Eager to read your thoughts on the current state of things and where you want to see things go.

[EWSoccer64]

Go back to the original post on this thread.
The preamble was that I was asked to give a history of how things operated before the PDL/RCL.
There are entire threads with thousands of posts devoted to the issues of the change to the PDL and then the change to the RCL, with pros and cons.
Anyone who wants to revisit those arguements are welcome to read those threads.  If you cannot find them, ask Brat, who has everythign at her finger tips.  They are some of the longest and most hotly contested threads ever to appear on this board.

As to why I am against the RCL/PDL?  Because it is club centric, not team centric.  It discriminates against talented teams from smaller clubs and areas. Because it encourages recruitment by big clubs and destabilizes teams from smaller clubs.   Because of all those things, and more, it discriminates against the outlieing areas of the state.   Because the powers that be created it to benefit the paid youth soccer professionals instead of the players. 
I find it discriminatory, subject to abuse, and not in the best interests of the players.   That makes it evil in my mind. The people who support it are either misguided, rapacious profiteers, evil, bigots, or deliberate sabotuers trying to bring down WSYSA for their own ends.  That's my opinion, since you asked.  And since it is an evil thing, the proper thing to do is to oppose it.  Even if it has no direct effect on me or my kids.

The purpose of this thread was to explain to people new to Washington Soccer what it was like in the old days.  This thread was not designed to debate one way or another on how evil the PDL/RCL is or is not.  There are plenty of other places to do that.

Oh, I'm plenty Thick. That's not the issue! You still haven't explained why you bring all of this up though? I am not trying to attack ya, though you are taking it that way, which is unfortunate.

What injustice are you referring to in the switch from the Premier system to the current PDL system? I appreciate your having some intention to support those who suffer the injustice you perceive to be in the current system compared to the old one. Surely you'd understand why someone might believe you had a personal connection to the issue with which you are raising. Apologies if it seemed an attack. Just cynism.

Bravo in pointing out issues. But, are you doing anything about it other than posting here? I mean that genuinely. No one at Washington soccer is going to care about some post on a message board. Unless the intent is to start drumming up support to then start a #movement. Which would also be admirable if the desired change you see is in best interests of all. I guess the question then would be - "what qualifies you to seek/demand any change?" This would be the question of anyone starting a movement. For example, up here there is a new 12% tax on everything which eliminated the old tax system. This is now being challenged by a former premier of our province (equivalent to state rep). He is qualified to raise these issues.

In short, not attacking you. Seeking clarification of what change you are wanting, why the current way is bad, was the change ever needed in the first place, what are you doing to create the change you seek, and what qualifies you to do so?

You can speak eloquently about Washington soccer and I am trying to figure out why you believe all of this is such an issue.

Was the old way really better? Was there more benefit? These are things I couldn't tell you. Particularly interested in the chat as BC Soccer is going through a massive change at the highest levels of youth soccer.

Eager to read your thoughts on the current state of things and where you want to see things go.

[tripleplay]

Oh, I'm plenty Thick. That's not the issue! You still haven't explained why you bring all of this up though? I am not trying to attack ya, though you are taking it that way, which is unfortunate.

Five years ago, we had a politician-focused system whose elements were (1) many years of rec monopoly (2) a few years of district monopoly for better-than-rec and (3) some years of state league for 1% of Washingtonians (which EW described). We still have the rec monopoly, but for fewer years. We still have the district system, but not for all clubs (and not a monopoly for any club because of the PSPL). And the state-run leagues (RCL and Open league) now have inputs from clubs that actually play in them, and they serve more than 1%.

The biggest practical change from 5 years ago is that more U10-U13s are playing year round, and they are doing so with better coaches in better leagues. The biggest negative is that State cup is rapidly losing its meaning. For unclear reasons, WYS is deliberately destroying its main asset.

EW is upset because he sees the purpose of WYS as putting successful clubs down. He incorrectly believes that’s the only way that less successful regions like his will win more.

[ThiKuBC]

Go back to the original post on this thread.
The preamble was that I was asked to give a history of how things operated before the PDL/RCL.
There are entire threads with thousands of posts devoted to the issues of the change to the PDL and then the change to the RCL, with pros and cons.
Anyone who wants to revisit those arguements are welcome to read those threads.  If you cannot find them, ask Brat, who has everythign at her finger tips.  They are some of the longest and most hotly contested threads ever to appear on this board.

As to why I am against the RCL/PDL?  Because it is club centric, not team centric.  It discriminates against talented teams from smaller clubs and areas. Because it encourages recruitment by big clubs and destabilizes teams from smaller clubs.   Because of all those things, and more, it discriminates against the outlieing areas of the state.   Because the powers that be created it to benefit the paid youth soccer professionals instead of the players. 
I find it discriminatory, subject to abuse, and not in the best interests of the players.   That makes it evil in my mind. The people who support it are either misguided, rapacious profiteers, evil, bigots, or deliberate sabotuers trying to bring down WSYSA for their own ends.  That's my opinion, since you asked.  And since it is an evil thing, the proper thing to do is to oppose it.  Even if it has no direct effect on me or my kids.

The purpose of this thread was to explain to people new to Washington Soccer what it was like in the old days.  This thread was not designed to debate one way or another on how evil the PDL/RCL is or is not.  There are plenty of other places to do that.

Oh, I'm plenty Thick. That's not the issue! You still haven't explained why you bring all of this up though? I am not trying to attack ya, though you are taking it that way, which is unfortunate.

What injustice are you referring to in the switch from the Premier system to the current PDL system? I appreciate your having some intention to support those who suffer the injustice you perceive to be in the current system compared to the old one. Surely you'd understand why someone might believe you had a personal connection to the issue with which you are raising. Apologies if it seemed an attack. Just cynism.

Bravo in pointing out issues. But, are you doing anything about it other than posting here? I mean that genuinely. No one at Washington soccer is going to care about some post on a message board. Unless the intent is to start drumming up support to then start a #movement. Which would also be admirable if the desired change you see is in best interests of all. I guess the question then would be - "what qualifies you to seek/demand any change?" This would be the question of anyone starting a movement. For example, up here there is a new 12% tax on everything which eliminated the old tax system. This is now being challenged by a former premier of our province (equivalent to state rep). He is qualified to raise these issues.

In short, not attacking you. Seeking clarification of what change you are wanting, why the current way is bad, was the change ever needed in the first place, what are you doing to create the change you seek, and what qualifies you to do so?

You can speak eloquently about Washington soccer and I am trying to figure out why you believe all of this is such an issue.

Was the old way really better? Was there more benefit? These are things I couldn't tell you. Particularly interested in the chat as BC Soccer is going through a massive change at the highest levels of youth soccer.

Eager to read your thoughts on the current state of things and where you want to see things go.

Thank you for the explanation. Wasn't trying to make you feel attacked. Apologies if that came across.

Is it possible by trying to draw in less clubs (ie, lending PDL to be more available to a few big clubs) the PDL is trying to keep the talent in the state within a few select teams to better allow for scouting??? The new league in BC is restricted to 8 franchises. THe Premier Cup is now the only cup from which to enter the National Finals from BC. For 2 years on Premier League teams can enter and then after a 2 year period any team can enter (though you'll only see a few brave 2nd tier teams try I am sure). By restricting the league to 8 franchises the talent is streamlined to a few teams, allows for easier scouting, and demands the training/game environments are high as can be, while keeping all 8 franchises on the same travel and time-constraint budgets. IE, no one age group is going to have a team from a massive driving distance away as a one-off.

Restricting to 8 franchises (and charging a  lot to join these teams) won't be perfect, and it may not be better than PDL. TIme will tell. I am not trying to suggest BC has solved development problems but I can see the logic of limiting where elite can play so they are more easily observed.

[EWSoccer64]

>>>[color=redIs it possible by trying to draw in less clubs (ie, lending PDL to be more available to a few big clubs) the PDL is trying to keep the talent in the state within a few select teams to better allow for scouting??? The new league in BC is restricted to 8 franchises. THe Premier Cup is now the only cup from which to enter the National Finals from BC. For 2 years on Premier League teams can enter and then after a 2 year period any team can enter (though you'll only see a few brave 2nd tier teams try I am sure). By restricting the league to 8 franchises the talent is streamlined to a few teams, allows for easier scouting, and demands the training/game environments are high as can be, while keeping all 8 franchises on the same travel and time-constraint budgets. IE, no one age group is going to have a team from a massive driving distance away as a one-off.

Restricting to 8 franchises (and charging a  lot to join these teams) won't be perfect, and it may not be better than PDL. TIme will tell. I am not trying to suggest BC has solved development problems but I can see the logic of limiting where elite can play so they are more easily observed.][/color]<<<

That pretty much is the system that the PDL Originators had in mind.   Except in Washington, it was going to be 6 Franchise Clubs, not 8.   The Originators of the PDL had to expand the pool in order to garner the political support to enable their modified system to come into being, but in the back of their minds, it was just a step on the way to a permanent 6 team A Division.    You could see the PDL moving in that direction when they expanded to younger age groups and placed the teams at the youngest age groups in divisions according to the overall ranking of the clubs.   And one could see the ethics of the people running the league when they changed rules, applied them retroactively, and moved one of the Big Clubs up 7 places to be in the top Six.

However, the entire logic and thought processes of going with a permanent Big Six and forcing talent into them has been superceded by the Academies and the ECNL.  Those are now the First Tier teams in Washington.  Why go to all the effort and political battles to create such a system just for second tier teams?  And the clubs that fielded Academy and ECNL teams might be superceded in State Cup and top tier state league play by other Big Clubs that were not expending their resources and talent on ECNL/Academies.
    If EFC started winning as many state titles as Crossfire usually does, it would not be helpful for Crossfire, even if their Academy and ECNL teams were doing wonderful.

[ThiKuBC]

6 elite teams in the state of Washington??? Seems way too small. The BC Premier League 8 franchises are drawing from a population of about 2-3 million (a province of 4 million). What would the 6 elite in Washington be drawing from?

ECNL is just girls, correct? But PDL has girls teams? You are correct, why create 6 "elite" PDL teams when the actual elite teams are in ECNL.

No easy answers.

[puppies]

The real problem with any system that funnels players into a limited number of "elite" clubs is that it discriminates geographically and financially.  Most of the big clubs would scholarship one of their top five players but would they do this for thier number 12?  This player very well could become the best player in the age group as they develop.  By eliminating their ability to play on a lower cost team against top competition, you stifle their development.  Also consider a player living in an outling area who has a great coach develop a team that can compete at the top level (something that had happened many times in the past); this group is now denied the ability to play other top teams without first aligning with one of the elite clubs. 

[ThiKuBC]

Yep, Like I said not a perfect solution. But it is better than what we had - in my opinion. This remains TBD of course.

That being said, BC can limit itself to 8 franchises and not particularly limit the best talent. There will always be exceptions. But, the vast majority of "elite" soccer players all live within 45 minutes of one of the 8 franchises. Those kids that are elite but live quite some ways away from one of the 8 franchises weren't going to be playing elite soccer anyway, unless they moved or were willing to drive 2-3+ hours one-way to play for an elite team. The fact is, in BC the elite kids living in far-away communities are the only elite kids in their neighbourhoods and are either moving or driving if they want to play elite soccer anyway. An example being, I knew a kid who easily was good enough for elite soccer but lived about 35 minutes away one-way from a 2nd tier team on a good driving day. The nearest elite team was 1 hour one-way from his house. So he never chose to play there, though did tryout once and was selected for the elite team. He wasn't willing to move or spend that much time driving.

I can see in a state like Washington as this not necessarily being the case. That elite kids can be far more spread out and strong teams can be far more spread out. Whereas in BC the population is very centralized.

[EWSoccer64]

The real problem with any system that funnels players into a limited number of "elite" clubs is that it discriminates geographically and financially.  Most of the big clubs would scholarship one of their top five players but would they do this for thier number 12?  This player very well could become the best player in the age group as they develop.  By eliminating their ability to play on a lower cost team against top competition, you stifle their development.  Also consider a player living in an outling area who has a great coach develop a team that can compete at the top level (something that had happened many times in the past); this group is now denied the ability to play other top teams without first aligning with one of the elite clubs. 

This is particularly true when the top tiers of teams are not "merit based".

[RamaBama]

>>>>The question is how many national team/professional players were developed pre-PDL/RCL compared to now that RCL is running. Not a perfect comparison but gives you an idea....
<<<<

Not enough data from the PDL/RCL years.   However, the study that was done and reported on this site showed that the PDL/RCL DECREASED the average number of regional champions produced by Washington state.   

An
Your last statement begs the question as to the quality of play and players...some years talent is simply better . That probably is NOT a function of PDL. I will go out on a limb and say the old BU91 group may have been one of the strongest years in WA.

Dr. V,

Agree with you on the B91's.  FedWay and BJs.   Add to that   the G90s,  and  G92s.      As for now the B95s (Ralph's) look pretty decent based on last year, but missed did not make it out of bracket this cycle.  They look to have some staying power.

[Old Dog]

As for now the B95s (Ralph's) look pretty decent based on last year, but missed did not make it out of bracket this cycle.  They look to have some staying power.

If the rumor mill is true, 2 or 3 of these players will have left this team by the time the wheels touch ground back in Seatlle. Can you say Sounder FC.

I think its just hard to compete with a free program and to be a part of that.