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[sounderfan]

Will Niccolls.

http://goalwa.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/will-niccolls-named-washington-youth-soccer%e2%80%99s-referee-program-director/

The new position, which replaces the State Youth Referee Administrator (SYRA) post vacated by Roberto Alvarez earlier this year, will incorporate many jobs previously conducted by the SYRA, as well as new duties that will further enhance Niccolls’ ability to implement initiatives and create further programming for referee development statewide.

[EWSoccer64]

Not sure that I like this.   The Referees should remain independant from the WSYSA.

[sounderfan]

I am curious about this, too.

I have put out some feelers. We'll see.

Hey refs, please chime in on this.

[sounderfan]

Anonymous referee feedback is coming in. See here:
http://goalwa.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/will-niccolls-named-washington-youth-soccer%e2%80%99s-referee-program-director/#comment-1131

[Old Dog]

Not sure that I like this.   The Referees should remain independant from the WSYSA.

I believe the kids fee fund some of the training programs. IE, I think the refs education have a line item on the State Budget do they not.

[EWSoccer64]

Old Dog,
I do not know about the state level, but most associations seem to help out somewhat with referee training.
It would be surprising if there was not some money already going to the State Ref Assn for training from the WSYSA, but I simply do not know.
However, even if the state were giving the ref's training money, to have someone from the WSYSA (one of several constituencies of the State Ref Assn) taking charge of a portion of the Ref Assn is not welcome news.

[wit]

Just as a bit of education for everyone. A State Referee Committee is made up of representitives from the Adult and the Youth side of the game. The old SYRA position worked on behalf of the Youth State Association and was put in that position. by the Youth State Association. I know that 99% of the Youth State Associations do fund the State Referee Committee in one form or another, mostly a budget line item that lists a contribution (In the case of Idaho it is 10K per year I believe). Also most of those Youth ASsociations don't really take the lead with their SYRA's and just let them get on with it most of the time but that trend is changing as reffing is costing so much of the clubs money and several of the State Referee commtitees have become a little bit dysfunctional.

What WA seems to have done is to take more charge of that position and that probably is not a bad thing and I will keep an open mind . Incidentally Cal-S has gone one further and now controls Adult soccer in their state and so now the whole of the referee committee falls under their control as they appoint the SYRA and SRA (adult version of the SYRA).  As I understand it, even if US Club has to go through Cal-S to get refs.... kind of ironic really.....

[Left Foot]

Not sure that I like this.   The Referees should remain independant from the WSYSA.

What are the likely negative consequences as you see them?

[EWSoccer64]

Not sure that I like this.   The Referees should remain independant from the WSYSA.

What are the likely negative consequences as you see them?

Aside from general principles of not concentrating power in any single person or organizations hands, there is always the possibility of abuse.   
For instance - FIFA decrees that the rules should be interpreted one way, and say ODP wants things called a different way.  So the WSYSA wants the whistles to be blown on everything below the waist and virtually nothing above the waist.   And diving is not to be penalized in anyway.  To better prepare our WSYSA ODP players, the state wants youth soccer called that same way, despite what the rules state.

And yes, I have refereed ODP tournaments and recieved specific instructions on how to call the games based on what ODP wanted to see, which is why I use this -technically imaginary, so spare me the flaming e-mails! - example.


Another example would be that the parents are up in arms about both concussions and about slide tackles.   So the state tells the refs to ban all slide tackles at all ages and to not allow contested headers.   (Don't ask how this will be imposed or acted upon, remember the stupid rule that the WIAA decreed that the game must stop when a player hits the dirt).

[Left Foot]

Not sure that I like this.   The Referees should remain independant from the WSYSA.

What are the likely negative consequences as you see them?

Aside from general principles of not concentrating power in any single person or organizations hands, there is always the possibility of abuse.   
For instance - FIFA decrees that the rules should be interpreted one way, and say ODP wants things called a different way.  So the WSYSA wants the whistles to be blown on everything below the waist and virtually nothing above the waist.   And diving is not to be penalized in anyway.  To better prepare our WSYSA ODP players, the state wants youth soccer called that same way, despite what the rules state.

And yes, I have refereed ODP tournaments and recieved specific instructions on how to call the games based on what ODP wanted to see, which is why I use this -technically imaginary, so spare me the flaming e-mails! - example.


Another example would be that the parents are up in arms about both concussions and about slide tackles.   So the state tells the refs to ban all slide tackles at all ages and to not allow contested headers.   (Don't ask how this will be imposed or acted upon, remember the stupid rule that the WIAA decreed that the game must stop when a player hits the dirt).

Interesting. Can WSYSA make these kinds of decrees anyway? I.e. Additional rules for it's games? No slide tackling etc. which refs must follow when reffing WSYSA games. I have no idea if the modified rules we see at some of the younger age levels are mandated by associations or at the FIFA or whatever upper level might be involved. I guess WIAA could mandate rules changes that refs had to follow.

Just trying to see if WSYSA not taking on this role would really preclude them from implementing rules changes or not.

[eastofthe206]

Leftie,

While I don't have all the ins and outs, newbie ref as I am, it is clear to me that all kinds of folks have their finger in the referee rules equation.  I went to class and learned all the FIFA rules for being a ref.  Then I went to my first game to ref, a U-11 game...thought I'd start at the bottom and work my way up...: holy cats!  all kinds of rules and modifications that had nothing to do with FIFA!  well, it wasn't rocket science, I managed OK.  I never did investigate who made all those changes to the FIFA rules.  Was it the local association?  WSYSA? USYS?  dunno'

Then I went and watched high school soccer.  Whoa!  that's a mind bender.  It was like set theory...WIAA has their rules, FIFA has their rules, and every once in while the two intersect!!  OK, maybe that's a little exaggerated, but not by much.  I gathered from EW64's comments that the implied rule changes were a function of the tournament organizers...a specifice interpretation fo the rules for that place at that time.  Like I said, looks like more than a few folks have their fingers in the referee pie; WSYSA is not omnipresent.

But, I'm new at the game.  Only beginning to learn the subtleties of "the beautiful game", both on the field and off.

[EWSoccer64]

Leftie,

WSYSA already decrees the rules for all WSYSA games.   For one instance, FIFA rules are a 90 minute match with limited substiutions.  Exact number of subs is set at 3, but allowances are made for special circumstances.     

WSYSA has rules for unlimited subs, lesser numbers of players determined by age group, and shorter matches.

Not saying that the current WSYSA rules are right or wrong, just illustrating that WSYSA already has some power to decree the rules.
Now they will have more power.

And as eastofthe206 has stated, the WIAA has different rules, and causes the common rules to be interpreted differently.

Here is a question - when a leadership is willing and able to pack the "oversight board" to such a degree that they are effectively invulnerable and able to keep the leadership permanently, are you willing to trust them with ever greater power?

[Bathos]

Not sure that I like this.   The Referees should remain independant from the WSYSA.

What are the likely negative consequences as you see them?

There's also the potential, or at least perception, for certain tournaments and leagues to receive priority in referee assignment.

[Redkard]

Read the LOTG?

I'm not here to defend WYS, but can we all read page three of the laws of the game about modifications base on age (under 16/youth and over 35/ veterans) and gender.

WYS does what everybody around the country does.  Look at the time of game intervals: 17-18 and above is 90 minutes, 15-16 is 80 minutes, 13-14 is 70 minutes, 12-13 is 60 minutes and so on.

Weekend tournaments are 30 or 35 minutes halves depending on the tournament or it's size.

Unlimited substitution at the youth levels allow children to play.

All game are called the same way across the board.  More experience referees know when and when not to blow their whistles.  The laws (regular soccer) or rules (high school/college) are almost one and the same with a few difference not worth writing about here.

If you want referees to blow the whistle for all that goes wrong in a game, there would not be any action.

If you want to worry about anything, I would worry about those who want to restrict substitutions either by game or by half at the youth level.  Once you are subbed out of the game you cannot return; either by each half or game.

That will not be a referee decision, that would be a association thing (coming from a national level).

There will be no major issues to refereeing that most of you will see.  This is an effort to speed up the educational process across the board for referees at all levels.

[wit]

Right now whoever is hosting a tournament or running the league has the say on what rules are implemented so technically speaking WYS have that power anyway if they want to use it so I don't believe that you are going to see sweeping changes in rules for any games just because they have a new representative. Also remember that they have had a representative for many years at the State Referee Committee level.. they were just called something different (SYRA) so it really is not unheard of or groundbreaking that they have a new person working on their behalf. All they have done is say in a round about way that they are going to pay more attention to what goes on in the State Referee Committee and see that their interests are looked after by their rep.

As redkard has said, the changes will come in the education of the referees, and even then their are certain mandatory things that USSF have in place that must be followed so WYS can not go off on some wild tangent just because they feel like it.  USSF is currently implementing things like online education to supplement certain class hours and also online recertifications and so it's things like that, that I believe WYS will oversee within the State through their SYRA or whatever he is called now.  In theory you should see a lot more communication between the various referee entities that exist in Washington and hopefully that will benefit, youth, high school and adult.. after all the same refs cover those same games.  Cal-South have been doing it for over a year.. if you want to get a feel for what WA is going to do then I suggest you look no further than  http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/     thats my guess and my opinion folks..

[EWSoccer64]

As I said before, I am not debating whether the rules changes that WSYSA has made for youth play in this state are bad or good.  That is really a seperate issue. 
What is under consideration is if:
1. The new position is worth the expense.   Could the money be better spent in training programs, mentoring, or keeping new referees longer in some way?
2.  Is it wise or proper to have the WSYSA gain ever greater influence over refereeing and overall soccer in this state?  (This is a valid question regardless of the current leadership of the WSYSA).
3.  How does this affect the image of referees in general, and the Washington Soccer Referee's Association in particular?  Which serves many different constituencies, not just the WSYSA.

Read the LOTG?

I'm not here to defend WYS, but can we all read page three of the laws of the game about modifications base on age (under 16/youth and over 35/ veterans) and gender.

WYS does what everybody around the country does.  Look at the time of game intervals: 17-18 and above is 90 minutes, 15-16 is 80 minutes, 13-14 is 70 minutes, 12-13 is 60 minutes and so on.

Weekend tournaments are 30 or 35 minutes halves depending on the tournament or it's size.

Unlimited substitution at the youth levels allow children to play.

All game are called the same way across the board.  More experience referees know when and when not to blow their whistles.  The laws (regular soccer) or rules (high school/college) are almost one and the same with a few difference not worth writing about here.

If you want referees to blow the whistle for all that goes wrong in a game, there would not be any action.

If you want to worry about anything, I would worry about those who want to restrict substitutions either by game or by half at the youth level.  Once you are subbed out of the game you cannot return; either by each half or game.

That will not be a referee decision, that would be a association thing (coming from a national level).

There will be no major issues to refereeing that most of you will see.  This is an effort to speed up the educational process across the board for referees at all levels.

[wit]

As I said, all youth state youth soccer associations have representitives at the State Referee Committee level and have done so for many many years. All WA have done is announce their new representative and that they will probably doing more with that position than they have in the past. Just because WYS have a representative, it does not give them complete Carte Blanche to do what the heck they want, but it does give them both a vote and a lot of power and influence especially if they have the backing of the Adult Association.

I really believe that anyone who is truly interested in any State Referee Committee dealings should read page 4 of the USSF Ref Admin Handbook which can be found here http://www.massref.net/ussfpublications/refadminhdbk.pdf It will explain who the committee is and how it is formed and governed. 

Basically in a nutshell whether people like it or not the Adult and Youth State Associations control that commitee and one cannot make sweeping changes without the other. The book also explains the finances so download it and have a read

[Point Man]

One item in this discussion that seems to be missing is the Referee Program Director will report to Gary White. Does this make a lot of sense to have the Referee Director report to the Coaching Director?