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[skagitcoach]

What is the difference between the ISC Gunners teams that play in PSPL and the ISC Arsenal teams that play in NPSL? Are ISC Gunners and ISC Arsenal the same club? I just wondered because in England, Gunners is a nickname for Arsenal

[Independent]

The difference?  Somewhere between $150 and $800 

 

[pullback]

What I find interesting is the number of people quoted Hope/Keller/Henderson/O'Brien ect. that came out of WSYSA/US Youth and how many quoted haven't come out of WSYSA, Rowe, Academy US Soccer.

[BellLap]

What is the difference between the ISC Gunners teams that play in PSPL and the ISC Arsenal teams that play in NPSL? Are ISC Gunners and ISC Arsenal the same club? I just wondered because in England, Gunners is a nickname for Arsenal

ISC Arsenal would be more in line with a "select" program, the cost (per the ISC site) is estimated to range from $800- $1500 for the summer, fall and state cup.

ISC Gunners is a "premier" program, the cost (per the ISC site) is $1650 (for the U9-U10 ages) and $1850 for the U11-U13 ages.  That's comparable to the EFC team fees, around $1850 (but does not include the EFC club fee, which adds $900 or so)

I've been monitoring the ISC situation from afar over the past couple years as the Gunner program emerged around 2008.  They ran afoul of WSYS when they held tryouts prior to the dates established by WSYS at the time.  We can look back and see they were trying to form teams during the weeks before or during State Finals, which made them somehow inelgible for the next years state cup.  Lots of discussion on this forum about that (look it up).  That committed them to a path with US Club Soccer and thus they proceeded down that path.

It appears that EFC is ticked that the whole pyramid structure (as oppose to a ponzi scheme  ) has been messed up.  Historically the member clubs of EYSA (Eastside Youth Soccer Association) such as Newport, Mercer Island, Lake Hills, etc. would run rec and select programs leaving the premier program to EFC.  ISC is now running all three rec, select and premier programs and giving the soccer community another premier option.  Roles have been changed without everyone's agreement.  EFC contributed to the situation when they started to field 3 to 4 premier teams per age group instead of just taking the top talent that could fit into one or two teams. 

What really seems to be screwed up is the weakness of a select program in certain age groups. There are more premier teams (ISC plus EFC) than select teams (ISC).  We seem to have an hourglass type of situation instead of a pyramid.  Yes talent seems to be an issue, but I also see it being a money issue.  The parents wanted the kids to play on an upper edge team, the clubs are willing to give it to them, just shell out the bucks and we'll call it what you want.  Why run a select program for $800 per kid when you can collect $1650?

Here's a count of teams (as best as I could deduce from the websites)

Select
ISC Arsenal G12 - one team
ISC Arsenal G13 - two teams
ISC Arsenal B12 - one team
ISC Arsenal B13- one team

Premier
EFC G12 - four teams
EFC G13 - three teams
EFC B12 - four teams
EFC B13 - three teams
ISC Gunners G12 - two teams
ISC Gunners G13 - two teams
ISC Gunners B12 - two teams
ISC Gunners B13 - two teams

[tripleplay]

it is a statement of fact, which is that Keller and Solo are products of Washington State Youth Soccer.

It's also a "fact" that these two went to elementary school, once had cereal for breakfast, ate an apple sometime during their lives ...

But they are also not germane facts.

[chicken wing]

Most player development models are pyramids, Gary White's is a Drain.... where's the Drano?

[metz123]

What is the difference between the ISC Gunners teams that play in PSPL and the ISC Arsenal teams that play in NPSL? Are ISC Gunners and ISC Arsenal the same club? I just wondered because in England, Gunners is a nickname for Arsenal

ISC Arsenal would be more in line with a "select" program, the cost (per the ISC site) is estimated to range from $800- $1500 for the summer, fall and state cup.

ISC Gunners is a "premier" program, the cost (per the ISC site) is $1650 (for the U9-U10 ages) and $1850 for the U11-U13 ages.  That's comparable to the EFC team fees, around $1850 (but does not include the EFC club fee, which adds $900 or so)

I've been monitoring the ISC situation from afar over the past couple years as the Gunner program emerged around 2008.  They ran afoul of WSYS when they held tryouts prior to the dates established by WSYS at the time.  We can look back and see they were trying to form teams during the weeks before or during State Finals, which made them somehow inelgible for the next years state cup.  Lots of discussion on this forum about that (look it up).  That committed them to a path with US Club Soccer and thus they proceeded down that path.

It appears that EFC is ticked that the whole pyramid structure (as oppose to a ponzi scheme  ) has been messed up.  Historically the member clubs of EYSA (Eastside Youth Soccer Association) such as Newport, Mercer Island, Lake Hills, etc. would run rec and select programs leaving the premier program to EFC.  ISC is now running all three rec, select and premier programs and giving the soccer community another premier option.  Roles have been changed without everyone's agreement.  EFC contributed to the situation when they started to field 3 to 4 premier teams per age group instead of just taking the top talent that could fit into one or two teams. 

What really seems to be screwed up is the weakness of a select program in certain age groups. There are more premier teams (ISC plus EFC) than select teams (ISC).  We seem to have an hourglass type of situation instead of a pyramid.  Yes talent seems to be an issue, but I also see it being a money issue.  The parents wanted the kids to play on an upper edge team, the clubs are willing to give it to them, just shell out the bucks and we'll call it what you want.  Why run a select program for $800 per kid when you can collect $1650?

That's a pretty accurate summary of the running battle between ISC and EFC for the past 7 years or so. ISC has always had a core group that felt that EFC was "stealing" their best players (this despite the fact that the pyramid is set up this way). EFC used to be kept more in control by their association with the limits imposed of 2 teams per gender per age. Once EFC was allowed to expand beyond their initial charter, the core group in ISC decided that their strategy was one of competition instead of co-operation and they opened up the gates to Jimmy Ball, moved a majority of their teams into PSPL and went down the premier, paid coaching route and into direct competition with EFC.

Personally....I think that premier clubs should be able to offer up their services to anyone that wants to pay. Anyone should be able to start up a team or club within an association and have equal access to fields and facilities. The current ISC/EFC causes a lot of confusion for parents but they seem to eventually figure it out and find the best fit for their family and kids.

[tripleplay]

Bell Lap,

Good info but not 100% accurate. The decision to go US Club was not a response to being ineligible for State Cup because of early tryouts. It preceded it. The big issue is that going US Club allowed ISC to field younger teams (now down to U9) which was forbidden by EYSA. Not familiar with Islander FC, but I'd speculate that is also the main issue there. WYS offers no spring soccer and nothing other than rec earlier than U11 (except for EFC).

I agree that the degradation of the select program is an issue. However, in each age group there are typically 3 other traditional select (i.e. volunteer coaches) teams in the association (Lake Hills, Mercer Island, and Newport - the exact clubs vary by year) so it is not as bad as you state. Also, I don't think there is any delusion that all of the paid-coach options are higher level on the field than the volunteer-coach options.

To me, the interesting thing about the letter is that it is a demonstration of how massively out-of-touch WYS is with what the parents of an enthusiastic soccer-playing kid care about. That said, if Gary White is spending all of his time warning us of the dangers of unauthorized soccer, at least it is keeping him from doing something far worse for the state's soccer players!

[chicken wing]

Chickenwing, of course I would not give Gary any of the credit for developing Keller and Solo. None of us would. The point is that Gary is not taking personal credit for their development in that letter, no matter how much you want to convolute the plain meaning. You clearly have an ax to grind and so you are reading into that paragraph something that it just does not say. The 'we' and 'our' in that context simply refers to Washington State Youth Soccer Association. Yes, Gary is a part of WYS, but it is clearly not an attempt on his part to take personal credit for developing Solo and Keller -- it is a statement of fact, which is that Keller and Solo are products of Washington State Youth Soccer. Look at it this way...when President Obama, in his inaugural address, said "We remain the most prosperous, powerful nation on Earth," it's obvious that he is not taking personal credit for the nation's prosperity in his use of the word "we." Neither is Gary White taking personal credit for developing Solo and Keller when he uses the words "we" and "our" in his letter.

Peace. Out.  

My whole point is WYS (all staff) has never developed a single player.  They sit in their ivory palaces (1.1 million dollar salaries - tax on WA players) and pretend to be guiding player development in WA state.  I have no axe to grind with Gary... he's a delusional tail wagging the dog.

No credit has been given to the literal ten's of thousands of hours the following coaches (to name a few - incomplete list) have dedicated to actually producing collegiate and professional soccer players:

Alan Hinton
Bernie James
Billy Crook
Bobby Howe
Brian Schmeitzer
Chance Fry
Dan Strom
Dick McCormick
David Hoggan
Eugene Poublon
Fran Obrien
Gary Heale
Greg Ion
Jason Farrell
Jimmy Gabriel
Jimmy McAlister
Mark Metzger
Neil Megson
Peter Hattrup
Ralphy Black
Seth Spidahl
Stuart Lee
Tommy Jenkins
Vadim Tolstolutsky
Walter Porter

---- Have you ever seen any of these coaches bringing Gary White's player development manual/notes to a training session?  Gary go home, save the kids some $$$.

Update:  Thanks for all the PM's on coaches!!

[skagitcoach]

Chickenwing...several of the coaches you named in that very short list were at one time or the other state ODP trainers, which made them part of the state WYS coaching staff, and as thus they were DIRECTLY involved in player development. But if you still want to say that the Washington State Youth Soccer Association and its programs have never developed any players, go right ahead.

[EWSoccer64]

<<<<My whole point is WYS (all staff) has never developed a single player.  They sit in their ivory palaces (1.1 million dollar salaries - tax on WA players) and pretend to be guiding player development in WA state. <<<

But chicken wing, they have never cheated a team of 12 year old girls out of a spot promised to them by your PSPL.........

[2 CENTS]

<<<<My whole point is WYS (all staff) has never developed a single player.  They sit in their ivory palaces (1.1 million dollar salaries - tax on WA players) and pretend to be guiding player development in WA state. <<<

But chicken wing, they have never cheated a team of 12 year old girls out of a spot promised to them by your PSPL.........

but they did cheat dozens of teams when they FAILED to integrate the PDL with the state league.

[EWSoccer64]

<<<<My whole point is WYS (all staff) has never developed a single player.  They sit in their ivory palaces (1.1 million dollar salaries - tax on WA players) and pretend to be guiding player development in WA state. <<<

But chicken wing, they have never cheated a team of 12 year old girls out of a spot promised to them by your PSPL.........

but they did cheat dozens of teams when they FAILED to integrate the PDL with the state league.

True.   
Last I heard was that the state was going to do away with the state leagues entirely, wrap those teams into the regionalized district play that leads into a state wide district league.

[lastplanet]

Wow, that letter is so typical.  "so that you are able to choose the correct environment for your child to be successful.."  This is what rubs me the wrong way about our local WYS club (SYSA).  They are up on a high-horse, are so rigid, and so possessive about players.

[chicken wing]

Chickenwing...several of the coaches you named in that very short list were at one time or the other state ODP trainers, which made them part of the state WYS coaching staff, and as thus they were DIRECTLY involved in player development. But if you still want to say that the Washington State Youth Soccer Association and its programs have never developed any players, go right ahead.

Haha.... just because a top level coach volunteer's (received no pay/recognition from W$Y$A) doesn't mean he/she represents W$Y$A, or the player development that Gary White recently contrived.

[skagitcoach]

If you are on the state ODP coaching staff, and you conduct training sessions and manage matches for the ODP teams, and you put on that jacket with the badge that says Washington State Youth Soccer Association ODP Program, you darn well DO represent WYS, whether you are paid or not.

[chicken wing]

If you are on the state ODP coaching staff and you put on that jacket with the badge that says Washington State Youth Soccer Association ODP Program, you darn well DO represent WYS, whether you are paid or not.

Name 1 coach that follows Gary White player development, chapter and verse?  You ever read it?

[tripleplay]

Name 1 coach that follows Gary White player development, chapter and verse?  You ever read it?

A Washington soccer plan is like a Nebraska surfing guide or a Florida skiing manual. The word is "make-work".

Radical idea. Let's start the way every other successful soccer country started - by making the sport extremely popular.

[pullback]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Gary's 96 Boys ODP/Sounders team the first in many years to beat Cal S in the regional tournament down in Phoenix a couple of years ago.

[chicken wing]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Gary's 96 Boys ODP/Sounders team the first in many years to beat Cal S in the regional tournament down in Phoenix a couple of years ago.

Can't recall.

The only thing the reorganization of soccer has done in the last 5 or 6 years is... before the PDL/RCL, Crossfire would win 3 or 4 state titles... now Crossfire win more Championships than the rest of WYS combined clubs/programs. Kudos to Crossfire.