Topic: High School Soccer Participation? (Read 2057 times)

Spam in a can · « **on:** November 21, 2011, 01:12:16 PM »

We reside in a school district where HS doesn’t start until 10th grade, hence no HS soccer for G15s. We were worried about sitting out three months while many of her teammates got tons of touches and game experience.

We were relived to find her club offered academy style training during the down time. The club supplemented the training with participation in a GU17 PSPL development league.

DD has been back training with her team for two weeks. IMHO almost all the girls who played HS soccer have lost speed, touch and fitness. Not a little but in stark contrast to the girls who participated in the academy training. DD told me she isn’t sure she wants to play HS soccer next year and lose the skills.

I would like to hear about other people’s experience.

plentyofgames · « **Reply #1 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:33:45 PM »

Of all the things to lose playing a HS season, fitness seems like it should be the least likely. They train or play everyday and can certainly do fitness on their own if they're not getting enough playing time. On the boys side, we'll have a good gauge. Several players from our team are from Washington and they played up on an RCL team during the fall. The others played HS in Oregon. They get back together in about a week for training and then NWCL games. I'd be surprised to notice a difference, but we'll see.

EWSoccer64 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:36:27 PM »

Welcome to the perpetual debate over HS soccer. You can see all the arguments and debates on a variety of threads.
basically, there are two extremist camps -
1) HS ball is slightly different, but it is still soccer and normally of good quality. And kids enjoy playing for their school.
2) HS ball is crap and no serious player should play it, it degrades their abilities and playing against unskilled athletic opponents is a grave injury risk.

Spam in a can · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:44:26 PM »

I know this debate has surfaced off and on for ever but didn't pay to much attention to it. But the diffrence just floored me. It is going to be intesting to see how long it takes the HS girls to catch up.

I know playing HS socccer has a lot of other things such as social etc but It would be nice qunitify what it is going to cost.

EWSoccer64 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2011, 01:59:21 PM »

The impact varies from player to player. A couple boys I coached would take all year to recover their skills after playing HS ball, others from the same HS teams would only take a month or so.

plentyofgames · « **Reply #5 on:** November 21, 2011, 02:13:22 PM »

Quote from: EWSoccer64 on November 21, 2011, 01:59:21 PM

The impact varies from player to player. A couple boys I coached would take all year to recover their skills after playing HS ball, others from the same HS teams would only take a month or so.

It certainly does vary from player to player. For some it takes no time at all, and some even benefit depending upon the team they're on and who their coach is. Oregon is a little different than Washington in that many (certainly not all) of the top HS coaches are also top club coaches. For example, this year's 6A winner was made up of kids predominantly from the WSM and FC Portland U-18s, with some additional club players mixed in. Last years winner was almost entirely an FC Portland group. Training together didn't make them worse.

Bathos · « **Reply #6 on:** November 21, 2011, 02:19:33 PM »

I'm not sure I can contribute a lot to helping you qualify the two, but my oldest DD's team (U16) also participated in that PSPL league. Their coach normally encourages them to play for their HS team, but several of the girls decided not to play this year and he also wanted them to continue to train/play together as he's planning on prepping them for a tournament this summer.

I didn't notice much difference in any of the characteristics you mentioned between the HS players vs. non players. Of course, everyone was playing and training with the club team, so the example isn't the same. One thing many of the girls mentioned was that, "player X never seemed to play as well for her HS team as she did the club team."

I'm certainly no expert, but I try and pay attention to what people who are have to say, and it seems like HS focuses so much more on direct athletic style of play (by virtue of having such a short instant season) that the skills and quickness used more in club soccer might not be exercised as much. Obviously, those are gross generalizations and there's exceptions in style for both HS and club teams.

Overall, I think that PSPL league was good for the girls. It certainly was more entertaining to watch than the HS games I sat through. I think that CPT Fire team was the main driver behind the league, and I know our coach was pleased, but I'm curious how the other teams and families felt too.

Spam in a can · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2011, 02:24:51 PM »

This CP thougth it was a mixed bag. Some good compitition but some 18-0 blow outs.

Bathos · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »

Yes, I also forgot to mention that we used it as a chance to bring up some of our '98 players to get them some higher level experience, but the competition was a mixed, that's for sure.

Spam in a can · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2011, 04:14:56 PM »

DD trained with the 97s once. Not a good experance. There were big diffrences in touch and tactical between U14 and U15.

goldengoal · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2011, 04:20:16 PM »

Quote from: Bathos on November 21, 2011, 02:35:00 PM

Yes, I also forgot to mention that we used it as a chance to bring up some of our '98 players to get them some higher level experience, but the competition was a mixed, that's for sure.

I have done the same thing- How funny!

mydogrosy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2011, 06:03:12 PM »

Completely depends on situation. Some schools are in leagues where quality is fairly consistent. In those, play can have good value, especially if playing HS means playing with older, stronger girls. Other leagues are more uneven or competition may be a more significant step down in quality from club play. Agree 100% that fitness will not suffer. 5 days a week is a lot and should be in great shape at end. Bigger concern is whether you are worn out by end November because lots of clubs want to get right to work as soon as HS season is over. Of great value I think is learning to deal with different backgrounds and ages. Younger players get to learn how to deal with teammates who are older and pull rank, not an issue on a U## team. Older players learn about leadership. Both good lessons that are valuable far beyond field.

scottydog · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2011, 06:22:18 PM »

Spam, don't worry about it one bit. Let her have fun with her HS friends. Let her experience the ride home on a bus after winning an away game. Let her learn how to carry the coaches bags and haul the cooler around because she is a freshman. Maybe even let her butt feel the end of a bench because her position is filled by a senior who has payed her dues.

If good skills are learned from good instruction and quality repetition, they are quickly regained after time off. There is nothing that says DD can't work on her own after school practice, or even get some extra time in with private instruction if you are really concerned. Her level of fitness will stay high with practice 5X per week.

My DD had a blast playing school ball this year. I'm glad she participated.

SaraBellum · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2011, 08:22:17 PM »

High school is a mixed bag. I think it depends on a lot of variables.

One blessing this season was the fact that DD's club coach made it to at least half of her high school games. He did that with all of his players- seeing them in different positions and with different team mates. He also chatted with all his players after games. The basic message was "I do not care who you play for- every single time you step on the field you give it all you have- regardless of who you play for or who you play with. I know what you can do, do you know what you can do?' I think her coach was going to 6-8 games a week at least.

Brat Jr · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2011, 08:55:03 PM »

Quote from: EWSoccer64 on November 21, 2011, 01:36:27 PM

Welcome to the perpetual debate over HS soccer. You can see all the arguments and debates on a variety of threads.
2) HS ball is crap and no serious player should play it, it degrades their abilities and playing against unskilled athletic opponents is a grave injury risk.

My DD agrees with this one

EWSoccer64 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2011, 12:53:30 AM »

Quote from: SaraBellum on November 21, 2011, 08:22:17 PM

High school is a mixed bag. I think it depends on a lot of variables.

One blessing this season was the fact that DD's club coach made it to at least half of her high school games. He did that with all of his players- seeing them in different positions and with different team mates. He also chatted with all his players after games. The basic message was "I do not care who you play for- every single time you step on the field you give it all you have- regardless of who you play for or who you play with. I know what you can do, do you know what you can do?' I think her coach was going to 6-8 games a week at least.

This has been known to really piss off some HS coaches.

ThiKuBC · « **Reply #16 on:** November 22, 2011, 11:29:37 AM »

Why would it piss the HS coach off? That makes no sense. The players have a longer-term, higher-priced committment to the club team. The coach, based on this post, wasn't going and saying "you have to switch this position, etc etc" the coach was making sure they were putting in their best effort and learning more about the player based on how the HS coach uses them.

6-8 games per week?!? This club coach obviously doesn't have a regular day job - or family if he does have a regular day job!

drarcher · « **Reply #17 on:** November 22, 2011, 11:36:08 AM »

Quote from: EWSoccer64 on November 22, 2011, 12:53:30 AM

Quote from: SaraBellum on November 21, 2011, 08:22:17 PM
High school is a mixed bag. I think it depends on a lot of variables.

One blessing this season was the fact that DD's club coach made it to at least half of her high school games. He did that with all of his players- seeing them in different positions and with different team mates. He also chatted with all his players after games. The basic message was "I do not care who you play for- every single time you step on the field you give it all you have- regardless of who you play for or who you play with. I know what you can do, do you know what you can do?' I think her coach was going to 6-8 games a week at least.

This has been known to really piss off some HS coaches.

It does undermine the High School team. I have no horse in this race but even I can see that.

Brat Jr · « **Reply #18 on:** November 22, 2011, 12:28:47 PM »

Quote from: EWSoccer64 on November 22, 2011, 12:53:30 AM

Quote from: SaraBellum on November 21, 2011, 08:22:17 PM
High school is a mixed bag. I think it depends on a lot of variables.

One blessing this season was the fact that DD's club coach made it to at least half of her high school games. He did that with all of his players- seeing them in different positions and with different team mates. He also chatted with all his players after games. The basic message was "I do not care who you play for- every single time you step on the field you give it all you have- regardless of who you play for or who you play with. I know what you can do, do you know what you can do?' I think her coach was going to 6-8 games a week at least.

This has been known to really piss off some HS coaches.

not sure why it would upset the HS coach. If Mikis' coach wasn't already coaching HS, he probably would have been at the girls' games.
Seeing the girls in a different position may give the Club coach some additional ideas of where his player can go if he hasn't already tried it.
Miki plays D in Club... HS she was all over the place lol

LTDAD · « **Reply #19 on:** November 22, 2011, 02:10:56 PM »

Most of the problems with high school soccer are that some of these coaches have no idea what they are doing on the field! Good Example: After watching the Sumner and Bonney Lake high school coaches in their playoff games, I have come to the conclusion that these coaches have the coaching experience like a steel trap: rusty and illegal in 37 states. Sumner’s coaches don't know whether to scratch their watches or wind their butts. Sumner probably had more talent on the field then most 2A and 3A teams out there and these coaches couldn't get these girls past the quarter finals the last 3 years! They have players WPFC ECNL, Dos Red, Reign Purple, and Synergy. Don’t get me started on the Bonney Lakes coaches, most coach’s drink from the fountain of soccer knowledge, Bonney Lake coaches only gargled.

Also, several high school coaches out there do not base playing time on skill, but on who's sucked up to them more that week or base it on what club does your kid play for "What's that, you play for WPFC; no worries you made varsity”.

Go Panthers!

ThiKuBC · « **Reply #20 on:** November 22, 2011, 02:11:36 PM »

DrArcher - how does it undermine the team. The way this situation was described the club coach was supporting the HS coach and the decisions the HS coach made on positioning. He then was also demanding the girls put in their best performances for the HS coach.....not following your logic there!

SaraBellum · « **Reply #21 on:** November 22, 2011, 03:18:16 PM »

Club coach was there to be supportive. He even had some other players come to games and watch each other when they could- which was nice because the girls missed each other. He does not have a day job (he's retired). Often he would have at least one player on both high school teams in the match, and would cheer for both of them. The girls and parents really appreciated seeing him. He was just like any other fan or family member in the crowd watching- only I know his presence made a huge difference to his players. At least my DD was excited to have her coach see her play offense- she's defense for him. He wasn't there to observe coaching- he was there to watch soccer (which he loves) and support his girls. I do know more than one high school coach talked to him about the how to get the most out of certain girls. The soccer community is not as big as it seems and some of these coaches have known each other 20+ years and have good professional relationships.

yote19 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 22, 2011, 03:18:55 PM »

Quote from: ThiKuBC on November 22, 2011, 11:29:37 AM

Why would it piss the HS coach off? That makes no sense. The players have a longer-term, higher-priced committment to the club team. The coach, based on this post, wasn't going and saying "you have to switch this position, etc etc" the coach was making sure they were putting in their best effort and learning more about the player based on how the HS coach uses them.

6-8 games per week?!? This club coach obviously doesn't have a regular day job - or family if he does have a regular day job!

LOL -- the club coaches (some of them) do not need rubbish like "day jobs". And "families" ....poof!!!

ThiKuBC · « **Reply #23 on:** November 22, 2011, 03:33:22 PM »

hahaha, excellent!

what a great retirement job - coaching soccer. I look forward to that in 25-30 years!

EWSoccer64 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 22, 2011, 04:25:53 PM »

Quote from: yote19 on November 22, 2011, 03:18:55 PM

Quote from: ThiKuBC on November 22, 2011, 11:29:37 AM
Why would it piss the HS coach off? That makes no sense. The players have a longer-term, higher-priced committment to the club team. The coach, based on this post, wasn't going and saying "you have to switch this position, etc etc" the coach was making sure they were putting in their best effort and learning more about the player based on how the HS coach uses them.

6-8 games per week?!? This club coach obviously doesn't have a regular day job - or family if he does have a regular day job!

LOL -- the club coaches (some of them) do not need rubbish like "day jobs". And "families" ....poof!!!

Some of just structure our "day jobs" around soccer. What's this thing called a "Family", anyway?

Hear Me Roar · « **Reply #25 on:** November 22, 2011, 06:55:13 PM »

Quote from: LTDAD on November 22, 2011, 02:10:56 PM

Most of the problems with high school soccer are that some of these coaches have no idea what they are doing on the field! Good Example: After watching the Sumner and Bonney Lake high school coaches in their playoff games, I have come to the conclusion that these coaches have the coaching experience like a steel trap: rusty and illegal in 37 states. Sumner’s coaches don't know whether to scratch their watches or wind their butts. Sumner probably had more talent on the field then most 2A and 3A teams out there and these coaches couldn't get these girls past the quarter finals the last 3 years! They have players WPFC ECNL, Dos Red, Reign Purple, and Synergy. Don’t get me started on the Bonney Lakes coaches, most coach’s drink from the fountain of soccer knowledge, Bonney Lake coaches only gargled.

Also, several high school coaches out there do not base playing time on skill, but on who's sucked up to them more that week or base it on what club does your kid play for "What's that, you play for WPFC; no worries you made varsity”.

Go Panthers!
You know since the coaching is so bad, your daughter could just not play. it's easy to sit in the stands and blame coaches ... however, if I recall correctly in the past two seasons, the Bonney Lake coaches are like 16-3-0 this year ending at the Sweet 16 and 19-2-1 the year before ending 2nd in state ... wow,those coaches are awful. Maybe you should waive your daughter into one of other local schools with better coaches ...

drarcher · « **Reply #26 on:** November 22, 2011, 10:57:37 PM »

Quote from: ThiKuBC on November 22, 2011, 02:11:36 PM

DrArcher - how does it undermine the team. The way this situation was described the club coach was supporting the HS coach and the decisions the HS coach made on positioning. He then was also demanding the girls put in their best performances for the HS coach.....not following your logic there!

I guess it depends how you read the comment. I read it as the club coach watching the game and then after the game collecting his players and chatting with them. If "after the game" means later that evening or at his practice as opposed to at the soccer game that just finished then I am mistaken. If he is talking right after the game that is underminding the High School coach because it is the High School coaches job to "coach" the players for his team. If they are preparing to get feedback from their club coach they likely are not taking feedback from their high school coach the same as if the club coach was not there.

It really is not a ton different than the kid who plays a game, gets feedback from the coach and then has his parents give him a ton of feedback during the car ride home. Likely there is going to be contradictory feedback and it undermines the coach to create that for the kid.

ThiKuBC · « **Reply #27 on:** November 23, 2011, 12:00:57 AM »

^seems to me you are being overly cynical.

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. Isn't the HS coach undermining the club coach with the feedback he is giving them??

EWSoccer64 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 23, 2011, 12:05:49 AM »

Some HS coaches feel threatened by the club coaches, and believe that the club coaches are telling their mutual players to do things the club way rather than the HS way.
Then there are comments like "Don't worry, it's only HS." while meant to cheer up an upset player, a HS coach can understandably be tweaked about it. And then there is the potential for comparisons - meant or not - between success in one place and lack of success elsewhere.

drarcher · « **Reply #29 on:** November 23, 2011, 02:02:34 PM »

Quote from: ThiKuBC on November 23, 2011, 12:00:57 AM

^seems to me you are being overly cynical.

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. Isn't the HS coach undermining the club coach with the feedback he is giving them??

That makes zero sense. The kid signed up for High School soccer knowing that the high school coach would train him. So the high school coach is doing his job. If the high school coach goes to a club game and gives feedback at the club game then I would agree.

I don't really know who is who in Washington soccer coaching but my daughters high school coach is probably as good or better than most club coaches anyways so maybe my perspective is a little skewed. But I would put Oostrom at Hanford up against any coach in the local club (no offense to the local club, I think he is just that good)

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Author Topic: High School Soccer Participation? (Read 2057 times)