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[Bathos]

I know I am late to the game but what is wrong with an independent club? I know of one team who played for a national championship in Las Vegas last season that is an independent  club with exactly two teams. If that team can compete with the teams from large clubs why should they not be allowed to? Probably the wrong thread and I am sure it has been talked about but I have only been in Washington for a year now so I am a little lost and don't understand the concept. The only thing that I can equate it to is college football with the BCS conferences and non-BSC conferences. But everyone knows that is all about money, so is WSYSA all about money?

I'll play devil's advocate a bit.  It isn't about money per se, but about the most efficient way to develop top players.  You want your top players playing on top teams, against other top teams, coached by top coaches - that's basically the goal of seamless soccer, as I understand it.  So, to achieve that you need qualified and experienced people evaluating players, training them, and coaching them.  That means you generally have professional paid coaches and administrators.  It takes a certain amount of expense to support that staff level, so you need big associations/clubs to gain economy of scale.  You also want as large a player pool possible to be able to identify the top players.

Independent clubs are bad, in this line of thinking, because top players (and sometimes top coaches) get lost in developmental dead ends.  Top players are allowed to play with their friends instead of being moved to top clubs, top coaches coach mid level kids who won't turn pro so are a waste of the coach's talents, etc.  At the very least their skills don't develop as well because they're not challenged by other top competition.

Personally, I think there's a LOT wrong with that, but it will give us a really good chance of developing the kind of players who can win the World Cup in 1966.

[EWDOC]

Bathos,

I think you're close...the model is player focused, not club or team focused, so yes, top players would get to train together and play together.  But the player can still choose to play for another club, choose to not play for a Regional Club, just like they can now.  But that doesn't mean that a random team may not arise who can offer good competition in league play from time to time. 

But again, not sure that you have to have a bigger club for this...the Spokane Shadow, arguably the most successful club in the Spokane area, has won multiple state championships when they only had around 350 kids at most...focusing only on creating Premier teams.  Select clubs took care of the rest of the kids in the area.  SSC Elite and River City, both bigger in numbers, have never reached the same accomplishments.  Why?  All three clubs do a good job and we all know have good teams, but the Shadow develops kids much better than anyone else and maintains a very strong coaching staff who buys into their system of doing things. 

So if you talk to Crossfire, of course you'll hear bigger is better...but I think quality is the key, not size and this leaves room in the associations for more than one club.

[windy90]

EWDoC,

A sincere question.

What is the point of state wide associations?

What is the point of state wide districts?

I do realize, before the age of databases, computers and the internet, Associations were in charge of registering players manually, so I heard.  Now with the ability to register electronically, what is the point from your viewpoint?

[EWDOC]

EWDoC,

A sincere question.

What is the point of state wide associations?

What is the point of state wide districts?

I do realize, before the age of databases, computers and the internet, Associations were in charge of registering players manually, so I heard.  Now with the ability to register electronically, what is the point from your viewpoint?

windy, sincere answers...

The districts have out lived their usefulness, I'm sure way back when, it seemed like a good idea but now that WYS has restructured itself, I don't see the need at all for the districts as non profit corporations and think they should all wind down.  You may remember that at one time, the district commissioners actually sat on the state board which was one reason for them, but that is no longer the case.  Some of the districts run leagues as you know, but that can be transitioned in several different ways in my opinion, especially if the clubs enjoy the current structures and want to keep the leagues running.

The associations were meant to be the administrative body and member of WYS and are still so today.  But your point is valid, which is why the state recognized that they didn't need some 40+ associations considering what the association's role is.  We looked at our own district and thought we could reduce to 4 associations without interrupting any of the clubs who run soccer.  The associations need to embrace their role though and may need to acknowledge that their role may need to change in some cases.  I can see the associations becoming "supportive" type of organizations that help the clubs, support the clubs, fund raise for fields, etc...or I can see the associations eventually going away and the clubs simply becoming the members themselves. 

On a side note, personally, I would love to see the PSPL have all of their participants register with WYS and have the PSPL become another league so that those clubs/teams can still be members, play in state cup, etc...and the clubs can run it just like they do now, no need for a state league right now.  But I won't hold my breath right now...because even though it could happen under those circumstances, there are those who have to much to lose to let it happen. 

So not sure if that answers your questions or not.  Lots of changes still coming, so I'm sure the road will continue to be bumpy...but hopefully people will find a cooperative spirit and things will work out in the end. 

[EWSoccer64]

>>>>We looked at our own district and thought we could reduce to 4 associations without interrupting any of the clubs who run soccer. <<<

That would be a stretch.    Also, Bigger is not always better, for one thing it is a truism that the larger an organization is, the less responsive it becomes. 

To get four associations in Eastern Washington, one would have to merge the Wenatchee-Leavenworth-Omak- Columbia basin, Tri-Cities-Walla Walla-half of lower Yakima valley, and Upper half of lower Yakima Valley-Ellensburg-Yakima.   And then Spokane-Valley-Pullman-Clarkston-Chewellah.
In many cases, existing associations would simply be turned into clubs. 
While one could make a point about denying the representation to the state, and voting rights, that current associations enjoy, those rights and representation have become rather meaningless.   Particularly compared to the old days.

A better way might be to align with Idaho for leagues, for state cups, and for ODP.   The North-South Division set up that booted about a couple of years ago makes sense, and Eastern Oregon has shown interest in joining.   Geographically, such an area would be larger than either Washington state or the state of Oregon is now.

[Futsal]

A better way might be to align with Idaho for leagues, for state cups, and for ODP.   The North-South Division set up that booted about a couple of years ago makes sense, and Eastern Oregon has shown interest in joining.   Geographically, such an area would be larger than either Washington state or the state of Oregon is now.

To do that fully it would require a change in the US Youth Soccer By-Laws.  State Associations, State Cup and ODP are all defined at the national level.  Trying to get such a By-Law passed would be difficult since each State Association would need to approve a portion of one State Association leaving and joining another.  Probably a road they do not wish to start going down.

A less obtrusive option would be Washington Youth Soccer and Idaho Youth Soccer coming to an agreement that players in Eastern Washington could register directly with Idaho Youth Soccer.  This probably would not sit well with the RCL clubs, unless they could still play in the RCL.  Since this is a State to State arrangement, it would still mean Eastern Washington teams would need to play State Cup with Washington Youth Soccer.

With respect to ODP ... players are free to go where they want now.  Many Washington players are already in the Idaho ODP ... just as they are in the Oregon ODP.

[EWSoccer64]

A better way might be to align with Idaho for leagues, for state cups, and for ODP.   The North-South Division set up that booted about a couple of years ago makes sense, and Eastern Oregon has shown interest in joining.   Geographically, such an area would be larger than either Washington state or the state of Oregon is now.

To do that fully it would require a change in the US Youth Soccer By-Laws.  State Associations, State Cup and ODP are all defined at the national level.  Trying to get such a By-Law passed would be difficult since each State Association would need to approve a portion of one State Association leaving and joining another.  Probably a road they do not wish to start going down.

A less obtrusive option would be Washington Youth Soccer and Idaho Youth Soccer coming to an agreement that players in Eastern Washington could register directly with Idaho Youth Soccer.  This probably would not sit well with the RCL clubs, unless they could still play in the RCL.  Since this is a State to State arrangement, it would still mean Eastern Washington teams would need to play State Cup with Washington Youth Soccer.

With respect to ODP ... players are free to go where they want now.  Many Washington players are already in the Idaho ODP ... just as they are in the Oregon ODP.

A GK that I coached was asked to be part of the Montana ODP.  WSYSA, despite his not being part of the Washington ODP system, refused to let him do so.
In terms of the RCL, It seems that most of the Pugies would be glad to get rid of Tri-Cities and Spokane.   Bernie would likely protect Yakima.  But it makes sense for Yakima to be part of the Pugie based league rather than an Eastern Washington-Idaho-Eastern Oregon one.

Of course, one solution is for Eastern Washington to become part of the State of Idaho, and I am not talking just soccer here.  But that is never going to happen.  For one thing, the moderates and conservatives in Puget Sound would be dead set against that, it would mean that they would end up living in Ecotopia, a more radical version of California.   

[EWDOC]

>>>>We looked at our own district and thought we could reduce to 4 associations without interrupting any of the clubs who run soccer. <<<

That would be a stretch.    Also, Bigger is not always better, for one thing it is a truism that the larger an organization is, the less responsive it becomes. 

To get four associations in Eastern Washington, one would have to merge the Wenatchee-Leavenworth-Omak- Columbia basin, Tri-Cities-Walla Walla-half of lower Yakima valley, and Upper half of lower Yakima Valley-Ellensburg-Yakima.   And then Spokane-Valley-Pullman-Clarkston-Chewellah.
In many cases, existing associations would simply be turned into clubs. 
While one could make a point about denying the representation to the state, and voting rights, that current associations enjoy, those rights and representation have become rather meaningless.   Particularly compared to the old days.

A better way might be to align with Idaho for leagues, for state cups, and for ODP.   The North-South Division set up that booted about a couple of years ago makes sense, and Eastern Oregon has shown interest in joining.   Geographically, such an area would be larger than either Washington state or the state of Oregon is now.

Four associations is easily possible, not a matter of bigger is better, just simplifying the association layer for areas who struggle with it in the first place.  So the smaller ones become clubs, nothing wrong with that because they still run soccer in their area.  Their representation numbers go the association so nothing is lost there, and if done correctly, the smaller groups gain a seat on the association board when they merge.  It's been discussed many times at our meetings, not to complicated with the exception that each association currently has by-laws they need to address in every individual situation.

Your idea of a geographical change is interesting, but joining Idaho isn't the way to do it.  Idaho clubs don't want to be part of Idaho, so why would we?  Besides the formalities that Futsal reminds us of, to me it's a matter of why?  The Shadow, 3Rivers, why would these two clubs want to be part of something like this when their better competition is in Western Washington?  Northern Idaho came to us to play in our league because their league didn't meet their needs, the player fee to be part of Idaho is almost 3 times more than WYS...so while the sentiment is curious, this isn't a solution any Washington club or group would be interested in that I know of...

[Independent]

Independent clubs are bad, in this line of thinking, because top players (and sometimes top coaches) get lost in developmental dead ends.  Top players are allowed to play with their friends instead of being moved to top clubs, top coaches coach mid level kids who won't turn pro so are a waste of the coach's talents, etc.  At the very least their skills don't develop as well because they're not challenged by other top competition.

Personally, I think there's a LOT wrong with that, but it will give us a really good chance of developing the kind of players who can win the World Cup in 1966.

My opinion is that it is impossible for state or national organizations to, in any cooperative fashion, create a system that is both fair to the vast majority of players who will never play professionally, while at the at the same time developing great players for the top professional clubs and thus national team.  To think otherwise is a utopian pipe dream.

It is clear that some reasonably smart people have found that there is significant money to be made from parents, and until something happens to break that revenue stream,  partisanship infighting will rule the day..  Perhaps it will turn out that the financial models these clubs are built on is a house of cards that will eventually come crashing down..who knows, and to frank, I don't care.  

But, it does illuminate what is required to develop top notch players.  Money.  Until the potential for domestic earning is large enough that MLS clubs will invest significantly in salary and developmental systems, on par with those of the other major sports, we will always be a step behind the rest of the world.  And, all the squabbling about mergers, and clubs, and seamless soccer is just noise in that equation.

As the parent of a son who has a modicum of talent, but loves the game, it becomes a choice of how much is reasonable to invest in that love.  We all need to make our own choices, and I would have a hard time judging any parent who wants to spend money on soccer because they love their kid.  I am just glad I found an alternate route (independent team) to satisfy his desire to play at a level better than recreational, while still allowing me to invest more prudently in what I believe is best for his future (education).

[EWSoccer64]

In regards to joining Idaho, the regulatory hurdles can be dealt with by a USYSA waiver.   As long as no state org objects, it will work.
In terms of Idaho clubs coming to D-6 to play, your explanation is disingenuous.  THey do it because of lack of numbers in Northern Idaho and geography.   Spokane is vastly closer to them than Boise.  Anyone with an atlas knows that.
The same principle can drive an amalgamtion of Eastern Washington with Idaho.   Instead of being the forgotten 16%, we would be an important HALF.   
In terms of 3Rivers and Shadow wanting to stay  with WYS, why not let them?  Obviously, it can be done.   Of course, it would mean that 3Rivers would lose its select arm and all the revenue they take from the select arm to prop up the Premier side of the club. 
The greater amount of competition, and at the level that the Eastern Washington teams can bring, will do alot to pacify the clubs in Southern Idaho who are currently dissatisfied.
The difference in fees is not that big a deal when you look at the services provided and the real number that people currently pay in club fees.

>>>>We looked at our own district and thought we could reduce to 4 associations without interrupting any of the clubs who run soccer. <<<

That would be a stretch.    Also, Bigger is not always better, for one thing it is a truism that the larger an organization is, the less responsive it becomes. 

To get four associations in Eastern Washington, one would have to merge the Wenatchee-Leavenworth-Omak- Columbia basin, Tri-Cities-Walla Walla-half of lower Yakima valley, and Upper half of lower Yakima Valley-Ellensburg-Yakima.   And then Spokane-Valley-Pullman-Clarkston-Chewellah.
In many cases, existing associations would simply be turned into clubs. 
While one could make a point about denying the representation to the state, and voting rights, that current associations enjoy, those rights and representation have become rather meaningless.   Particularly compared to the old days.

A better way might be to align with Idaho for leagues, for state cups, and for ODP.   The North-South Division set up that booted about a couple of years ago makes sense, and Eastern Oregon has shown interest in joining.   Geographically, such an area would be larger than either Washington state or the state of Oregon is now.

Four associations is easily possible, not a matter of bigger is better, just simplifying the association layer for areas who struggle with it in the first place.  So the smaller ones become clubs, nothing wrong with that because they still run soccer in their area.  Their representation numbers go the association so nothing is lost there, and if done correctly, the smaller groups gain a seat on the association board when they merge.  It's been discussed many times at our meetings, not to complicated with the exception that each association currently has by-laws they need to address in every individual situation.

Your idea of a geographical change is interesting, but joining Idaho isn't the way to do it.  Idaho clubs don't want to be part of Idaho, so why would we?  Besides the formalities that Futsal reminds us of, to me it's a matter of why?  The Shadow, 3Rivers, why would these two clubs want to be part of something like this when their better competition is in Western Washington?  Northern Idaho came to us to play in our league because their league didn't meet their needs, the player fee to be part of Idaho is almost 3 times more than WYS...so while the sentiment is curious, this isn't a solution any Washington club or group would be interested in that I know of...

[drarcher]

Independent clubs are bad, in this line of thinking, because top players (and sometimes top coaches) get lost in developmental dead ends.  Top players are allowed to play with their friends instead of being moved to top clubs, top coaches coach mid level kids who won't turn pro so are a waste of the coach's talents, etc.  At the very least their skills don't develop as well because they're not challenged by other top competition.

Personally, I think there's a LOT wrong with that, but it will give us a really good chance of developing the kind of players who can win the World Cup in 1966.

My opinion is that it is impossible for state or national organizations to, in any cooperative fashion, create a system that is both fair to the vast majority of players who will never play professionally, while at the at the same time developing great players for the top professional clubs and thus national team.  To think otherwise is a utopian pipe dream.

It is clear that some reasonably smart people have found that there is significant money to be made from parents, and until something happens to break that revenue stream,  partisanship infighting will rule the day..  Perhaps it will turn out that the financial models these clubs are built on is a house of cards that will eventually come crashing down..who knows, and to frank, I don't care.  

But, it does illuminate what is required to develop top notch players.  Money.  Until the potential for domestic earning is large enough that MLS clubs will invest significantly in salary and developmental systems, on par with those of the other major sports, we will always be a step behind the rest of the world.  And, all the squabbling about mergers, and clubs, and seamless soccer is just noise in that equation.

As the parent of a son who has a modicum of talent, but loves the game, it becomes a choice of how much is reasonable to invest in that love.  We all need to make our own choices, and I would have a hard time judging any parent who wants to spend money on soccer because they love their kid.  I am just glad I found an alternate route (independent team) to satisfy his desire to play at a level better than recreational, while still allowing me to invest more prudently in what I believe is best for his future (education).

Best post I have read on this forum and I concur 100%. Unfortunately, there are no independent teams on this side of the state that play at my kids age group.

On a side note, at the beginning of every season I always have a discussion with all my players parents about college scholarships in soccer and advise them to invest their money in tutors and education if that is their goal. There is more money in academic scholarships then in athletic scholarships. Add in that soccer is not a major money college sport and that means most who even play in college will have no aide or a partial scholarship. When I went to college, I got enough money from my athletic scholarship to pay for books, that is it.

[wanderer]

Wish all families received what drarcher communicated.  Too much of youth select is driven by false expectations as to where one goes in the game. Reality needs to be communicated early and regularly else before one knows it, families have poured silly money into it when most of what they will end up with can be had for a heck of alot less time and cash.

[metz123]

Wish all families received what drarcher communicated.  Too much of youth select is driven by false expectations as to where one goes in the game. Reality needs to be communicated early and regularly else before one knows it, families have poured silly money into it when most of what they will end up with can be had for a heck of alot less time and cash.

They do, they just ignore the message because their kid is the one that is going to make it. Plus..it's their money to spend as they see fit.