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Open Cup Question 4 3

[EWDOC]

Got a question from someone about Open Cup.  They were told that placement into the RCL for those who qualify was for a fall season only, no spring, and that no promotion was possible even if you won division 4 (which is the best placement you can start with).

Sorry if this has been covered already but have been absent from WPS for a spell.

[sidelinerdad]

Got a question from someone about Open Cup.  They were told that placement into the RCL for those who qualify was for a fall season only, no spring, and that no promotion was possible even if you won division 4 (which is the best placement you can start with).

Sorry if this has been covered already but have been absent from WPS for a spell.

So, if you are placed in Div 4 in the fall and win that div - you can't move up to Div 3?

[NKSoccerFan]

A careful read of the information provided on the wys site reveals no promises regarding future placement...

http://www.washingtonyouthsoccer.org/tournaments/open_cup/

For the 2012 pilot Open Cup, U13 & U14 Round Robin 1 Bracket winners are slated to be placed into the lower divisions (4th & 5th) of the RCL this fall. U15-U18 non-Regional Association teams will be evaluated for probationary RCL membership, a temporary inclusion in the RCL league structure for growing Associations that do not currently have RCL Clubs in their organizations.

What is the highest level Division of RCL my team can be placed into for the upcoming Fall 2012 season?
Eligible Select teams can be placed as high as the RCL Division 4 for the Fall 2012 season.

What is Probationary Membership?
Probationary Membership is currently defined as temporary team placement within the RCL for a non-Regional Association Club based on standards developed with the RCS. Clubs become eligible upon review and approval by the RCS of their player development standards.

[metz123]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

[Redkard]

There has been some movement.  Hopefully this Open Cup is the first step.

Those of us who keep track of this stuff, and go to meetings regarding this stuff will be there to support a team(s) who makes it past this stage in the game.  If and when that success continues during league play; we will be there to make sure they will be allowed to continue to progress through whatever the league morphs into.......

Some of our voices are being heard......

[windy90]

The Open Cup is a handout for WYS treasury.  The cup gets teams nothing at $900.00 a pop.

WYS, should make all the youth soccer leagues restrictive and force all teams to play in expensive qualifying cup.  Have a Rec "Open cup", NPSL "open cup", district .... it's all about the money.

 

[Squash]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

This sounds totally stupid to me....just saying. Forcing the parents and players to move basically. Even if you are on a successful select club, it sounds like they will limit your level of play based on these rules, which is wrong in so many ways.

I so miss LPT's and proving your worth on the field regardless of select, premier, whatever. It was a true test of a team/coach/players. This RCL garbage is just that... "GARBAGE"

[soccerpride]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

This sounds totally stupid to me....just saying. Forcing the parents and players to move basically. Even if you are on a successful select club, it sounds like they will limit your level of play based on these rules, which is wrong in so many ways.

I so miss LPT's and proving your worth on the field regardless of select, premier, whatever. It was a true test of a team/coach/players. This RCL garbage is just that... "GARBAGE"

We want LPT's, bring back LPT's!!! I know that LPT's were not everyone's favorite...I mean I remember listening to parents complain about how their teams were so much better, but had a bad game or two and they felt it was not fair how their fate was determined by these LPT's! Hmm...   but were they fun??? Yes! I know they were for our team who happened to do well... 

[EWSoccer64]

There has been some movement.  Hopefully this Open Cup is the first step.

Those of us who keep track of this stuff, and go to meetings regarding this stuff will be there to support a team(s) who makes it past this stage in the game.  If and when that success continues during league play; we will be there to make sure they will be allowed to continue to progress through whatever the league morphs into.......

Some of our voices are being heard......

I remember the PDL granfathering teams in, the coaches and associations thought that the grandfathering would be permanent unless the teams sucked.   Nope, the teams did well and then got kicked out anyway.   And the same people who ran the PDL run the Sub-Committee. 

The aim seems to be obvious in these rules.   To try to force kids into the high priced RCL clubs.

Even so, Manny is apparently running around Spokane Valley telling teams and players that they will never be accepted into the RCL via any system unless they go over to his amalgamation.

Redkard,   Recent history has caused such a total loss of faith in the WYS and such a massive distrust of the RCL and their henchman Todd, that not enough people believe in your undoubtedly sincere statements to trust that they will ever be treated half decently, let alone honorably.    It is that simple.   WYS has to do something to rebuild the bridges that they and the RCL have burned.  And this is nowhere near enough, even if it were honest and straightforward rather than just the latest recruiting ploy.

[Spacemnt]

I agree with Squash this all equals to GARBAGE! Why would anyone pay $900 for "what if" the State has lost it's mind! Why would a Non RCL team or Select team want to earn the right to play the bottom feeders in Div 4 and 5? What is the point if you win your division and you are not promoted? Hey kids great job winning the division, but the State say's we have to review if you still belong here! I think what the State know's but doesnt want to be exposed several Non RCL or Select teams would kick the crap out of these teams. Take your team to US Club and let them earn their way up and down the ranks. I used to support the State but over the years this has turned into a joke. LPT's need to come back or I think the State will see US Club win the battle in the coming years. I say all it would take is one or two RCL Clubs to jump ship to US Club to crumble the Kremlin!

[windy90]

Redcard,

Eastside FC guys crafted the "bottom of the barrel" Open Cup.  WSYSA thought this would be a golden goose, a way to generate the lost annual revenue now approaching 1 million.

Todd, Terry & Doug are now hung out to dry by the RCL executive DOc's.  Why?  Open cup will fail, Eastside FC debt service to WYS is in jeopardy at $400k, not including other loans.

House of cards that WSYSA built (rcl) is close to falling.

[lester]

Got a question from someone about Open Cup.  They were told that placement into the RCL for those who qualify was for a fall season only, no spring, and that no promotion was possible even if you won division 4 (which is the best placement you can start with).

Sorry if this has been covered already but have been absent from WPS for a spell.

Of all the people that post on here, you'd be the one I'd guess was in a position to have the best insight on the Open Cup.   Are you just stirring the pot to get some feed back or is the planning so screwed up that even District board members don't know what the rules or the rewards are?   Or, the purpose of the tournament?

[Redkard]

I agree with you all that the system is flawed.  While the problem hasn't been solved completely this is a start.

I do know that the fee to participate is only $450 not $900..... If a team makes it to the second stage of the competition, they do not pay a second $450 fee. 

That question a was asked and answered at this year's AGM.

If anyone hears of a team that advances and is charged the second $450, let me know?  I will be the first one in line at the WYS offices to fight for you.......

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I see light at the end of the tunnel.  Despite how far off the light is.....

[Southend soccer mom]

RCL clubs won't jump ship to US Club but they seem to be very worried about losing players. We went to one of the big club's parent meetings before the tryout season started and all they had to say was "RCL is the best - don't think Gunners are anywhere close to us!". Was a bit turned off by their aggressiveness towards smaller clubs and decided to not try out for the big club.

I agree with Squash this all equals to GARBAGE! Why would anyone pay $900 for "what if" the State has lost it's mind! Why would a Non RCL team or Select team want to earn the right to play the bottom feeders in Div 4 and 5? What is the point if you win your division and you are not promoted? Hey kids great job winning the division, but the State say's we have to review if you still belong here! I think what the State know's but doesnt want to be exposed several Non RCL or Select teams would kick the crap out of these teams. Take your team to US Club and let them earn their way up and down the ranks. I used to support the State but over the years this has turned into a joke. LPT's need to come back or I think the State will see US Club win the battle in the coming years. I say all it would take is one or two RCL Clubs to jump ship to US Club to crumble the Kremlin!

[goldengoal]

RCL clubs won't jump ship to US Club but they seem to be very worried about losing players. We went to one of the big club's parent meetings before the tryout season started and all they had to say was "RCL is the best - don't think Gunners are anywhere close to us!". Was a bit turned off by their aggressiveness towards smaller clubs and decided to not try out for the big club.

I agree with Squash this all equals to GARBAGE! Why would anyone pay $900 for "what if" the State has lost it's mind! Why would a Non RCL team or Select team want to earn the right to play the bottom feeders in Div 4 and 5? What is the point if you win your division and you are not promoted? Hey kids great job winning the division, but the State say's we have to review if you still belong here! I think what the State know's but doesnt want to be exposed several Non RCL or Select teams would kick the crap out of these teams. Take your team to US Club and let them earn their way up and down the ranks. I used to support the State but over the years this has turned into a joke. LPT's need to come back or I think the State will see US Club win the battle in the coming years. I say all it would take is one or two RCL Clubs to jump ship to US Club to crumble the Kremlin!

Is there a club bigger than ISC?

[All for One]

Is there a club bigger than ISC?

I'll bite. How big is ISC? 

We don't see too many of their teams down south here...

[Futsal]

If anyone hears of a team that advances and is charged the second $450, let me know?  I will be the first one in line at the WYS offices to fight for you.......

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I see light at the end of the tunnel.  Despite how far off the light is.....

It is refreshing to see an Association President who recognizes that he represents all clubs in the entire Association rather than seeing his role as the standard bearer for a non-member RCL Club against his own membership. 

The Open Cup process of giving RCL DoCs the power to deny qualified teams with no appeals process from entering the Open Cup is too subjective.  22 RCL Clubs, 22 DoCs and 22 different opinions on who should get in or not.  A team who may be let in in one Association would be turned down for subjective reasons in another. 

Teams are being required to "get along" with the RCL Club or they would not be allowed in.

While it is a admirable goal to have all members be collegial, respectful, and "get along," that is not a rule that can be legislated, and it is not reasonable to exclude a group of participants from joining a league on the basis that they will not be collegial or "get along."  Such a requirement is reminiscent of the types of requirements for social clubs that were designed to exclude minorities.  Such rules have been carefully reviewed in appropriate cases by the courts of the United States, and any similar rule adopted by an Organization Member of USSF would violate USSF Bylaw 105, Section 2.

In addition, unsigned RCL service agreements/Dual Charters seem to trump written and approved Open Cup entry rules ... allowing DoCs to subjectively deny teams entry into the Open Cup who should by rule be applying directly to WYS instead. 

USYS and US Soccer both require that rules that involve participation be reasonable and that these rules be applied consistently.   

[goldengoal]

Is there a club bigger than ISC?

I'll bite. How big is ISC? 

We don't see too many of their teams down south here...

According to their site ISC is home to over 300 youth soccer teams and helps more than 3000
children each year.

They are the only club that I can think of who has Rec, Dev, Select, Premier and WPSL and I am sure I am missing something, but not familiar with them besides what I have read here and on their site

[Spacemnt]

Southend I wouldn't be too sure one or two RCL Clubs will eventually leave the RCL. I am not saying this year, but as US Club continues to develop and open up opportunities I believe the possibility is there. In my opinion, its a joke a club like ISC is not considered for the RCL pure politics. The bottom line is that there is no light at the end of the tunnel unless you are already living in the Kremlin or a servant of the Kremlin.

[ThaBigCheese]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

This sounds totally stupid to me....just saying. Forcing the parents and players to move basically. Even if you are on a successful select club, it sounds like they will limit your level of play based on these rules, which is wrong in so many ways.

I so miss LPT's and proving your worth on the field regardless of select, premier, whatever. It was a true test of a team/coach/players. This RCL garbage is just that... "GARBAGE"

We want LPT's, bring back LPT's!!! I know that LPT's were not everyone's favorite...I mean I remember listening to parents complain about how their teams were so much better, but had a bad game or two and they felt it was not fair how their fate was determined by these LPT's! Hmm...   but were they fun??? Yes! I know they were for our team who happened to do well... 

Sorry, what is/was an LPT?

[All for One]

Southend I wouldn't be too sure one or two RCL Clubs will eventually leave the RCL. I am not saying this year, but as US Club continues to develop and open up opportunities I believe the possibility is there. In my opinion, its a joke a club like ISC is not considered for the RCL pure politics. The bottom line is that there is no light at the end of the tunnel unless you are already living in the Kremlin or a servant of the Kremlin.

I don't think a club has to leave the RCL to pursue US Club opportunities. At least right now, there seems to be some flexibility. For example, Vancouver Timbers typically put their best premier teams in the RCL (WYS), the younger teams and older "B" teams in the Oregon Premier League (US Club), select teams in the Portland Metro League (joint WYS/OYSA), and has lots of rec teams playing locally (WYS).

Is there anything that stops a Seattle area RCL club from having some teams play in PSPL or other US Club leagues?

[Redkard]

I am proud to say that the RCL clubs that are in my area have been most helpful in doing what is necessary for non RCL teams to register for the Open Cup!

Opportunity is all that non RCL teams have been looking for.  Hopefully they can take advantage of it.......

[metz123]

No, but the only reason to do so is for travel. That's really why Timbers do it. If they were centrally located in the middle of the RCL they wouldn't put teams in OPL or PML. They do the smart thing and place those teams where they don't have to travel as much and still get good competition. Whatcom occasionally does the same thing for their lower level RCL teams and has them play NPSL district league.

[tripleplay]

No, but the only reason to do so is for travel.

Several RCL clubs participated in the PSPL (Crossfire, DOS, Westsound) when it was the only league covering the younger age groups. That's why "RCL-JR" was formed.
 

[soccerpride]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

This sounds totally stupid to me....just saying. Forcing the parents and players to move basically. Even if you are on a successful select club, it sounds like they will limit your level of play based on these rules, which is wrong in so many ways.

I so miss LPT's and proving your worth on the field regardless of select, premier, whatever. It was a true test of a team/coach/players. This RCL garbage is just that... "GARBAGE"

We want LPT's, bring back LPT's!!! I know that LPT's were not everyone's favorite...I mean I remember listening to parents complain about how their teams were so much better, but had a bad game or two and they felt it was not fair how their fate was determined by these LPT's! Hmm...   but were they fun??? Yes! I know they were for our team who happened to do well... 

Sorry, what is/was an LPT?

Here is a link as to how it kind of looked...the LPT's was a League Placement Tournament. Every year around June, teams would travel to Pasco (TRAC) and compete against each other in this tournament...the best 8 teams would be placed in P-1, the next P-2 and the next P-3...if your team did not make it in the top 24 teams, you would go into a state league...but the next year you would do this all over again, and get a shot to make it into one of the premier divisions...the tournament was over a course of at least 2 weekends, but what a lot of us liked was the fact that as long as you had a team within WSYSA who met the requirements you could go up against the "best" and sometimes this would cause some BIG upsets...the games I at least saw were always really intense...boys from what some would consider the "best" clubs did not want to be put to shame by boys from a smaller club...sometimes when these upsets would happen the parents would become very vial on the sidelines...but in the end teams had to earn their spot to play in the top division every year...

Please anyone jump in if I am not remembering this correctly...we only did it two years before it went away...

http://homepage.mac.com/tdeck/Rapids96/roadmap090301.pdf

[ThaBigCheese]

Thanks Soccerpride.  This is kind of what they do in Dallas.

[ThaBigCheese]

And that sounds logical, except you aren't rewarded by prior years performance if you do well, but nothing is perfect.

[Pops]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

This sounds totally stupid to me....just saying. Forcing the parents and players to move basically. Even if you are on a successful select club, it sounds like they will limit your level of play based on these rules, which is wrong in so many ways.

I so miss LPT's and proving your worth on the field regardless of select, premier, whatever. It was a true test of a team/coach/players. This RCL garbage is just that... "GARBAGE"

We want LPT's, bring back LPT's!!! I know that LPT's were not everyone's favorite...I mean I remember listening to parents complain about how their teams were so much better, but had a bad game or two and they felt it was not fair how their fate was determined by these LPT's! Hmm...   but were they fun??? Yes! I know they were for our team who happened to do well... 

Sorry, what is/was an LPT?

Here is a link as to how it kind of looked...the LPT's was a League Placement Tournament. Every year around June, teams would travel to Pasco (TRAC) and compete against each other in this tournament...the best 8 teams would be placed in P-1, the next P-2 and the next P-3...if your team did not make it in the top 24 teams, you would go into a state league...but the next year you would do this all over again, and get a shot to make it into one of the premier divisions...the tournament was over a course of at least 2 weekends, but what a lot of us liked was the fact that as long as you had a team within WSYSA who met the requirements you could go up against the "best" and sometimes this would cause some BIG upsets...the games I at least saw were always really intense...boys from what some would consider the "best" clubs did not want to be put to shame by boys from a smaller club...sometimes when these upsets would happen the parents would become very vial on the sidelines...but in the end teams had to earn their spot to play in the top division every year...

Please anyone jump in if I am not remembering this correctly...we only did it two years before it went away...

http://homepage.mac.com/tdeck/Rapids96/roadmap090301.pdf

So, close but not quite. In the U14 year LPTs were used to place teams in Premier Divisions 1-4. After the season there was promotion and relegation, but the top 2 divisions were set, and the top half of the 3rd division stayed too. LPTs for U15 and up only placed into remaining 4 slots in Div 3 and filled out Div 4.

[Pops]

Correct for both. WYS has placed "rules" on select level clubs who are sisters to an RCL club (another club in the same association that is already designated as an RCL Club).

Rule 1 - No year round play. Thus you play one RCL season only. If you currently play year round, you aren't allowed into Open Cup.
Rule 2 - Move your best players to teams in your RCL club. Thus no promotion for a Select team above RCL 4.

Provisional RCL clubs have a different set of rules.

Metz - rule 2 isn't quite right. Players can't be forced to move, but should be encouraged to play at the right level for their development. Also - if a team in an association with an RC earns promotion, they just need to be supported for it by the regional club.

[Squash]

Lets not forget there was relegation and promotion with LPT's...so the leagues were never set for good. If you were last in division 1, you'd be in division 2 the following year. If you kept sucking each year, you'd keep dropping.

The same was said for winning your division, you'd move up.

It was and always will be a better system then the one they use now of simply just placing teams based on being in a big club and funneling players.