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Open Cup Question 4 3

[FactsOnly]

Is it too late to register? Really liking our chances in the BU14 bracket!  Do we need to show up or just pay the 450 to get into RCL D4?

[NKSoccerFan]

Just wait, WYS will now say,
"See, we offered a way into the RCL and only 44 teams were interested.  Obviously, we don't need to change anything."
[sips brandy]

 

[Old Dog]

Just wait, WYS will now say,
"See, we offered a way into the RCL and only 44 teams were interested.  Obviously, we don't need to change anything."
[sips brandy]

 

And that would not be a fair statement?

[Southend soccer mom]

Just wait, WYS will now say,
"See, we offered a way into the RCL and only 44 teams were interested.  Obviously, we don't need to change anything."
[sips brandy]

 

And that would not be a fair statement?

A little too late. Maybe if this would have been an option when RCL was created, teams might have been interested. Now there are other options out there. Why pay extra to place in the lowest divisions with no chance of being promoted or play spring leagues?

[NKSoccerFan]

Just wait, WYS will now say,
"See, we offered a way into the RCL and only 44 teams were interested.  Obviously, we don't need to change anything."
[sips brandy]

 

And that would not be a fair statement?

 Why pay extra to place in the lowest divisions with no chance of being promoted or play spring leagues?

And why should my club ever need to ask permission from another club to be placed in a league?

[Futsal]

And why should my club ever need to ask permission from another club to be placed in a league?

Actually its not to enter the league ... its permission just to enter the Open Cup to have a chance at entering a league.

And even this, WYS has not followed its published rules.  It has in fact required teams without a RCL Club within its Association to get permission or attempt to get it from a RCL Club in another Association.  That combined with an Association President who fails to back up his own clubs and instead advocates on behalf of the RCL club from another Association ... a RCL Club he for whom he is a paid coach for.

What started as a ray of hope for many select clubs has been tarnished ...

[Redkard]

The post script of the initial incarnation of the open cup should be interesting.

The number of teams involved is way too low. 

What are the reason?

Poor advertising?

Poor location on the website?

Poor communication between WYS and teams who belong to associations?

Teams outside WYS not keep up with the new event or not interested at all?

The confusing rules with respect to the cost ($450 or $900) and format?

While not the best situation, it is a first step....

Hopefully things will be ironed out for round 2 next summer; if the event survives.....

[goldengoal]

We could go back to the CAP system   


 

they are not doing the CAP system anymore? I remember Todd telling us at a meeting that this was a great point system and that initially there would be a few problems, but this would change everything. 

[goldengoal]

The post script of the initial incarnation of the open cup should be interesting.

The number of teams involved is way too low. 

What are the reason?

Poor advertising?

Poor location on the website?

Poor communication between WYS and teams who belong to associations?

Teams outside WYS not keep up with the new event or not interested at all?

The confusing rules with respect to the cost ($450 or $900) and format?

While not the best situation, it is a first step....

Hopefully things will be ironed out for round 2 next summer; if the event survives.....

RedK I like your positive attitude, support and hope, but at some point we have to be realistic. How many first steps do you get before you finally admit, hey maybe this is not working or maybe I am the wrong person for this or maybe, just maybe, we should ask the members.

[HoHum]

The Open Cup was a good concept however as noted above, they needed to ask the customer what they wanted and not fabricate something and then present it to them. I know a few were involved but the groups that host the vast majority of the teams were kept out of it until after the fact. By the time it came to them, key elements structured into the arrangement made it a non-starter and adoption rate was guaranteed to be modest. It is too bad, nice idea.  Give credit to them for tryout. Maybe next year.

[Futsal]

The post script of the initial incarnation of the open cup should be interesting.

The number of teams involved is way too low. 

While not the best situation, it is a first step....

Hopefully things will be ironed out for round 2 next summer; if the event survives.....

I do agree this is a first step ... but not a well thought out one

WYS should have stated that the RCL Division 1 - 3 would remain the same but the remaining Divisions would be seeded through the Open Cup.  This would have sent the RCL teams and those non RCL teams wishing entry into the league to the Open Cup.  I know of several brand new RCL teams, above the RCL Charter limits, that should have gone to the Open Cup but did not because they were already promised an exception and entry into the RCL.

I would guess that in February, non-RCL clubs in Spokane (IEYSA / SpVJSA) planned on sending around 20 teams to the Open Cup. 

Then came the SSC Elite / Spokane Shadow intent to merge announcement.  WYS / SSC Shadow were pushing IEYSA and SpVJSA to accept a Dual Charter to cover both Associations.  The two SpVJSA competitive clubs found themselves in the awkward position of being on the opposite side of the negotiating table as their own Association and SSC Shadow.

At one point in time the two SpVJSA competitive clubs said they could agree to be the "Select" clubs within the Dual Charter if SSC Shadow would not field Select teams and instead cover the Premier Players (10% of the player base) which was about the number of teams allowed for by the RCL Charter.  The two competitive clubs did ask that their deserving teams be allowed to enter the Open Cup without hindrance from the RCL Club.

Although this would have given WYS their "Seamless Soccer Model" for Spokane County ... the proposal was rejected by the SpVJSA board and SSC Shadow.

When WYS stated that SpVJSA teams would need to get permission from SSC Shadow to enter the Open Cup even though no Dual Charter or RCL Service Agreement had been signed.  The number of teams heading to the Open Cup from Spokane dropped to around ten.  After SSC Shadow denied entry to teams and subsequent calls, renegotiation and required terms for reconsideration ... only some of the teams were given permission.  One of the teams that was denied beat the Shadow team in State Cup a few months back. 

In the end, because of the difficulty caused by allowing someone other than WYS to make the decision of who may enter.  The teams from IEYSA did not enter the Open Cup and will probably be lost forever to US Club Soccer and will now become a direct competitor of SSC Shadow rather than member of WYS.  The competitive clubs in SpVJSA pulled all their teams except one from the Open Cup.

Unlike other areas of the the state, players in Spokane have only SSC Shadow to choose if they want to play in the RCL. The next closest RCL club is over 2 hours away.  Unfortunately their only other option, the Open Cup, was taken away from them.

Sometimes WYS and their policies are their own worse enemy. 

[goldengoal]

good summary of what happened their Futsal- WYS either needs to be a totalitarianism system or it needs to be completely open(IMO). These political games of allowing some members more pull than others creates to many problems and takes time away from clubs, volunteers, coaches, money away from serving the kids. We probably spend more time on administrative and political red tape than we do on soccer training for the kids or at lease it feels that way. 

[justadad]

So, let's say you are a select club and  you win the open cup and get your spot in RCL 4.  Now assume you dominate and win the division.  Well, you don't get to play in the spring and your spot is provisional.  So back to US Club or to the sidelines you go.   Now for the next Fall we have 1 of 2 scenarios....1) they boot you out  because your club doesn't meet their "standards" and  you have to pay your money and requalify for the same spot that you legitimately won the year before or 2) they keep you and then bring in the winner of the Cup the next year and expand the size of RCL 4.   At some point RCL 4 is going to be HUGE!!!!!!

[Southend soccer mom]

If the kids can compete in Div 4, they belong to the RCL clubs! You as a parent are suppose to make your kid leave the team for the big clubs. Duh... 

[lester]

That's pretty much it.
The endorsement form that the team has to get an RCL DOC to sign is three questions.
1. Does the applying club run 8-9 month program?  Yes or No
2. Does the applying team participate in player activities with the Regional Club?   Yes or No
3. Does the applying coach support player movement through WA Youth program levels?   Yes or No

Your coach already agreed to move players from his team to the RCL club, that is a primary requirement for endorsement. 

The Spokane coach not answering question #3 correctly might be why Shadow didn't endorse the team that beat them?

[Futsal]

That's pretty much it.
The endorsement form that the team has to get an RCL DOC to sign is three questions.
1. Does the applying club run 8-9 month program?  Yes or No
2. Does the applying team participate in player activities with the Regional Club?   Yes or No
3. Does the applying coach support player movement through WA Youth program levels?   Yes or No

Your coach already agreed to move players from his team to the RCL club, that is a primary requirement for endorsement. 

The Spokane coach not answering question #3 correctly might be why Shadow didn't endorse the team that beat them?

I am not sure how the IEYSA teams answered.  But the teams from FC Spokane answered in this way.

1. Does the applying club run 8-9 month program?  YES
2. Does the applying team participate in player activities with the Regional Club?   No - None have been offered
3. Does the applying coach support player movement through WA Youth program levels?   Yes

With regards to FC Spokane teams.  FC Spokane is from an Association who does not have an RCL Club within it.  They submitted their development plan to WYS as required in the rules.  They were told that because SpVJSA and SSC Shadow were negotiating (what we are not sure yet) they needed to get SSC Shadow endorsement.

What is a Regional Club Association?
A Regional Club Association is an Association within which a Regional Club exists.

No Regional Club exists within SpVJSA

How do I get an endorsement from my Regional Club?
A letter of an endorsement from the Director of Coaching (DOC) from the Regional Club in your area is required if you are a non-RCL team within an RCL Association. WA Youth Soccer will provide a form for your club administrator to complete and send to the Regional Club DOC of your area requesting the letter of endorsement. This form will be posted by the end of April 2012. If you do not have a Regional Club within your Association, no such letter is needed, but a synopsis of your club’s player development plan and certification levels of the staff implementing the plan is needed. This plan should be submitted to Kim Calkins, Recreation and Select Programs Coordinator at kimberlyc@WashingtonYouthSoccer.org.

No Regional Club within SpVJSA and development plan submitted to Kim Calkins ...

What is the point of writing entry requirements when you have no intention of following them.  Also, it might be interesting to see if USYS and US Soccer agree that not allowing a registered member to participate in a sanctioned event based on the subjective criteria of a RCL Doc and not that of the hosting organization is within the laws of the United States and By-Laws of US Soccer.

[Redkard]

Not defending the first step.  Just acknowledging the first step being taken.  Regardless of what the first step was, it wasn't going to satisfy everyone.  But for those who were asking for some movement, here it is.....

I for one agree that the model is skewed.  The problem is that there a bunch of people who think that they have the answer to the question, when no one person/group has the answer.

Too bad we couldn't get some USSF, US Youth and US club Soccer people in one room and not let them out until they come up with a compromise plan that all could agree on.  On how the youth soccer structure would work from this day forward?

Until then we will continue to struggle.

[Futsal]

Not defending the first step.  Just acknowledging the first step being taken.  Regardless of what the first step was, it wasn't going to satisfy everyone.  But for those who were asking for some movement, here it is.....

I for one agree that the model is skewed.  The problem is that there a bunch of people who think that they have the answer to the question, when no one person/group has the answer.

Too bad we couldn't get some USSF, US Youth and US club Soccer people in one room and not let them out until they come up with a compromise plan that all could agree on.  On how the youth soccer structure would work from this day forward?

Until then we will continue to struggle.

I agree ... but all we have asked all along is that WYS follow their published rules.  And not make exceptions that treat our players differently than all the other WYS players applying for the Open Cup.

[lester]

Not defending the first step.  Just acknowledging the first step being taken.  Regardless of what the first step was, it wasn't going to satisfy everyone.  But for those who were asking for some movement, here it is.....

I for one agree that the model is skewed.  The problem is that there a bunch of people who think that they have the answer to the question, when no one person/group has the answer.

Too bad we couldn't get some USSF, US Youth and US club Soccer people in one room and not let them out until they come up with a compromise plan that all could agree on.  On how the youth soccer structure would work from this day forward?

Until then we will continue to struggle.

I disagree that this is a first step.   WYS has made false steps before this; feints, if you will, that were more deception than progress.   It got clubs and associations to vote away their right to vote again.
 
The Select Committee was a ruse that led teams and clubs to think someone cared about more than their player fees.   How many have come and gone from that committee?   They came up with nothing in four years.   
 
The Washington Youth Soccer Open League never got off the ground.
 
The CAP system.   WYS said teams at U15 could be moved to the RCL based on their CAP (earned in the State Cup, I guess).
 

[cuonpitch]

I spent a fair amount of time watching a lot of the games at this weekend’s Open Cup (when I was not watching Euro 2012).  I did not have a dog in the fight so it was fun just to evaluate the play I was seeing.  There definitely were teams that are going to be moving up to the RCL (Bainbridge Island, Norpoint, Issaquah, Crossfire Select, RVS, Pacific FC,  Wenatchee fire among them) and other teams that now know they belong in their old leagues (PSPL, OPL,NPSL etc). But at least now they know. Will these strong squads get as high as they would like in the RCL? Maybe not the first year.  But the door is open and for the sake of the players they should walk in, kick but and get moved up.  Many of the teams I saw would not be challenged playing Dead Club Walking and its peers in pspl.

It was pretty cool to see so many coaches take up the challenge (given some of the clubs that were there I wonder if all their DOCs approved),  to see if they were good enough to play at a higher level knowing that they may not like the answer. I know it took some guts as it’s much easier for us to just complain the start of the Open Cup is not perfect and to just  wait on the sides for something “better”.

BTW, I learned the teams that move on to the 2nd round don’t pay any more (I thought you had to pay for both weekends).  Pretty good deal for $450 if you ask me.

Cheers,
Cuonthepitch

[goldengoal]

I spent a fair amount of time watching a lot of the games at this weekend’s Open Cup (when I was not watching Euro 2012).  I did not have a dog in the fight so it was fun just to evaluate the play I was seeing.  There definitely were teams that are going to be moving up to the RCL (Bainbridge Island, Norpoint, Issaquah, Crossfire Select, RVS, Pacific FC,  Wenatchee fire among them) and other teams that now know they belong in their old leagues (PSPL, OPL,NPSL etc). But at least now they know. Will these strong squads get as high as they would like in the RCL? Maybe not the first year.  But the door is open and for the sake of the players they should walk in, kick but and get moved up.  Many of the teams I saw would not be challenged playing Dead Club Walking and its peers in pspl.

It was pretty cool to see so many coaches take up the challenge (given some of the clubs that were there I wonder if all their DOCs approved),  to see if they were good enough to play at a higher level knowing that they may not like the answer. I know it took some guts as it’s much easier for us to just complain the start of the Open Cup is not perfect and to just  wait on the sides for something “better”.

BTW, I learned the teams that move on to the 2nd round don’t pay any more (I thought you had to pay for both weekends).  Pretty good deal for $450 if you ask me.

Cheers,
Cuonthepitch

thanks for the unbiased WYS report

[lastplanet]

Many of the teams I saw would not be challenged playing Dead Club Walking and its peers in pspl.

? Most of the team entered were from RVS and in the PSPL are Classic level teams with a couple mid/lower Super League teams.  So not the top of the Super League at all (except one team not from RVS).  Here's all the PSPL teams that entered, how they did in the Open Cup and how they did in the fall/spr PSPL.  It doesn't look to me that RVS entered because of not finding high enough competition in the PSPL but for other reasons.

The bit in the parentheses is how the team did in the Open Cup with 1/2 meaning 1st out of 2 teams.  The letter is the bracket.  Not all teams played in both the fall and spr PSPL, so if fall or spr missing, it means they didn't play in the PSPL that season.

BU12/13  (2/4 B) RVS 99 Orange, in middle Classic fall & spr
             (4/4 A) RVS 00 Orange, bottom of fall Super League, bottom of Spr Classic

GU12     (2/4 A) RVS 00 Orange, lower half of fall Super League, 2nd from bottom in spring
            (4/4 A) RVS 00 White, bottom fall Classic, top of Classic 2 in spr

GU13     (4/4 A) RVS 99 White, bottom of spr Classic

GU14     (7/7 A) RVS 98 White, top of fall Copa, bottom spr Copa
            (6/7 A) RVS 98 Orange, middle of spring Classic 2
            (1/7 A) FC Spokane G98 Black - Dinaro (according to another poster; this team played under name Cobra Azzurri in the PSPL.  won the fall 2011 Super League and 2nd in the spring 2012 Super League; won all their games and was not scored against in the Open Cup; in the Super League was 4-2-2 spr '12 and 11-0-1 in fall '11)

GU15     (2/4 A) RVS 97 Orange, middle of fall&spr Super League

GU16     (3/3 B) RVS 96 Orange, bottom of the HS winter Super League
            (1/3 A) BIFC 96 Blue, 2nd in the HS winter Classic

GU17     (2/3 B) RVS 95 Orange, middle of HS winter Super League

FYI, for those not in PSPL.  Super League is the top, Classic middle, Copa lowest.  Sometimes Classic is divided into 1 and 2.

[stephan]

On the girls' side, 1/3 of the teams in the open cup were RVS teams.  As RVS is a new RCL club starting this fall, RVS was told all their teams had to play in the open cup.  And it's a good thing they did!  Without RVS, many of the open cup age groups would have only had 2 teams!

[Futsal]

? Not a single team from the top of the PSPL Super League entered this. 

FC Spokane G98 Black - Dinaro won the GU14 Open Cup.  This team won the GU13 2011 Fall PSPL Super Division and came in 2nd in the 2012 Spring PSPL Super Division.

[ThaBigCheese]

No GU99???

Many of the teams I saw would not be challenged playing Dead Club Walking and its peers in pspl.

? Not a single team from the top of the PSPL Super League entered this.  Most were from RVS teams and are Classic level teams with a couple mid/lower Super League teams.  Here's all the PSPL teams that entered, how they did in the Open Cup and how they did in the fall/spr PSPL.  It doesn't look to me that RVS entered because of not finding high enough competition in the PSPL but for other reasons.

The bit in the parentheses is how the team did in the Open Cup with 1/2 meaning 1st out of 2 teams.  The letter is the bracket.  Not all teams played in both the fall and spr PSPL, so if fall or spr missing, it means they didn't play in the PSPL that season.

BU12/13  (2/4 B) RVS 99 Orange, in middle Classic fall & spr
             (4/4 A) RVS 00 Orange, bottom of fall Super League, bottom of Spr Classic

GU12     (2/4 A) RVS 00 Orange, lower half of fall Super League, 2nd from bottom in spring
            (4/4 A) RVS 00 White, bottom fall Classic, top of classic 2 in spr

GU14     (7/7 A) RVS 98 White, top of fall Copa, bottom spr Copa
            (6/7 A) RVS 98 Orange, middle of spring Classic 2

GU15     (2/4 A) RVS 97 Orange, middle of fall&spr Super League

GU16     (3/3 B) RVS 96 Orange, bottom of the HS winter Super League
            (1/3 A) BIFC 96 Blue, 2nd in the HS winter Classic

GU17     (2/3 B) RVS 95 Orange, middle of HS winter Super League

FYI, for those not in PSPL.  Super League is the top, Classic middle, Copa lowest.  Sometimes Classic is divided into 1 and 2.

[lastplanet]

No GU99???

None of those in the Open Cup played in the PSPL fall season.  RVS G99 White did play in the spring PSPL at Copa, and I've edited my post to include them.  RVS G99 Orange was not in the PSPL last season.  I don't know what league they played in.

[lastplanet]

? Not a single team from the top of the PSPL Super League entered this. 

FC Spokane G98 Black - Dinaro won the GU14 Open Cup.  This team won the GU13 2011 Fall PSPL Super Division and came in 2nd in the 2012 Spring PSPL Super Division.

Ah, so played under the name Cobra Azzurri in the spring PSPL?

[ThaBigCheese]

None of those in the Open Cup played in the PSPL fall season.  RVS G99 White did play in the spring PSPL at Copa, and I've edited my post to include them.  RVS G99 Orange was not in the PSPL last season.  I don't know what league they played in.

I see....thank you for that!

[Lothar]

Are the Crossfire select teams that played this weekend trying for a spot, or are they a yardstick for the RCL?

[inthenet]

Wenatchee Fire BU16   

Beat
  Seattle United S 15-0
  RV Slammers 12-2
  Pacific Fire 5-1

Can't wait to see how they tear up RCL Division 5.