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[easternwashington]

Look at how we are doing...

...second most in the region...do we need the PDL and the whole elitist club thing...I think not.

[Big Youth]

Look at how we are doing...

...second most in the region...do we need the PDL and the whole elitist club thing...I think not.

Are you going to repeat the same statement over and over without any analysis?  Results in one years' regionals shouldn't be cited as evidence of the state of Washington soccer relative to the rest of Region IV.  We have good years and we have bad years.  I also note that all, or nearly all, of the Washington teams in the semis are teams from Clubs that are considered PDL or superclubs, so one could also use the results to support the notion that continuing the trend to strengthening those clubs is a good thing.

I personally think that the argument for and against superclubs should focus on competitive environment, development opportunities and consumer choices, not a once a year snapshot of Regionals.  Neither the current system nor the proposed PDL is perfect under the appropriate criteria.

[Squash]

The last 5 years or more washington teams have shown well Big Youth....so why do we need the super clubs?

It's not repetitive, in fact we have placed more kids at the national level in the past 3-5 years than anytime in our history.

I predict the trend with the super clubs will not improve these stats, but make them worse.

More teams, and more competition breed better players. It's a simple formula...more is better. You can find more diamonds in the rough, and players have a broader spectrum to develop under.

I look for less isn't more in washington soccer with the premier clubs. I hope and pray I'm wrong. :?

[Big Youth]

The last 5 years or more washington teams have shown well Big Youth....so why do we need the super clubs?

It's not repetitive, in fact we have placed more kids at the national level in the past 3-5 years than anytime in our history.

I predict the trend with the super clubs will not improve these stats, but make them worse.

More teams, and more competition breed better players. It's a simple formula...more is better. You can find more diamonds in the rough, and players have a broader spectrum to develop under.

I look for less isn't more in washington soccer with the premier clubs. I hope and pray I'm wrong. :?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not stumping for superclubs, and I'm not sure that the "fix" proposed by PDL isn't the equivalent of solving a cut finger by amputating a hand.  I meant what I said: (1) EW's posts were repetitive (the very definition of repetitive) without containing any analysis, and (2) Regionals should not be the primary test of Washington soccer.

I will agree that multiple years of Regionals success is somewhat more valid.  However, Regionals success only gives you an indirect measurement of the depth and quality of a state's scene, because one has to infer competitive depth from the showing of the champion (and other factors, including recruiting, could be more responsible) and because the draw is random (Storm Green is a very good team, but they had the weakest group--they didn't really get to show quality until the quarters).

Southern Cal and North Texas do fine without the Super Clubs. We can as well.

Project 40 also is a band aid that has lost much of its value, but that is a different topic.

[easternwashington]

Big Youth...I will stop being repetitive :oops:


....As squash stated we are having more and more success...more teams going farther at regionals the last 5 years...more teams succesful out of state the last 5 years...more kids in the youth national team program then ever before...Our State ODP teams being more succesful then ever before...Just looking at the overall results of this last year (ODP, Regionals, Out of state tournaments, youth national team, etc.) We can finally make a valid argument as possibly being the second top state in Region IV (behind So Cal...sure CO, CalN, and AZ might argue with us...but this is the first year that we can argue being number 2!!!!)


The Superclubs thing might not be a bad thing...but limiting what clubs can be involved at the highest level will hurt the overall development of players. The more kids/teams involved and given  a chance of proving themselves at the highest level will keep Washington rising at the National level.



So-Cal has some superclubs...but the other clubs are not excluded from participating in their league...WE MUST NOT LIMIT COMPETITION...This is America...free enterprise...free market...COMPETITION...COMPETITION brings the betterment of everything....it gives people a choice of where they feel the best avenue is for their kid...You prove yourself on the field....Dont prove yourself by excluding others!!!

[edmonds55]

" He's in a real soccer environment everyday, year round pressure." Arena said about what Donovan would gain from going back to Europe. "He'd deal with all the tough games. Even though it looks glorious from a distance, playing in Europe is a grind.

On a daily basis, there's competition within your own team.  There's pressure to win games.  There's promotion and relegation. It's the real thing, and in the end, the cream rises and you see the top players prevail and it positions you to be much more successful at the international level."

Super clubs or stay the same in WA? It appears if we want the quality of soccer to rise, then the challenges in the Super club system if implemented correctly seems a logical way to go........how about this slight little word replacement, "in the end, the cream rises and you see the top players prevail and it positons you (WA) to be much more successful at the NATIONAL level."  Something to be considered.....Does WA care more about being comfortable than being great?

[easternwashington]

Mr. Ed the talking horse...big difference in Europe and USofA....


.....Money....Professionalism throughout the clubs....our kids go to college then the pros(Iknow some don't)....but the clubs are all pro...kids don't pay to play...DON'T compare it.

[edmonds55]

Mr. Ed the talking horse...big difference in Europe and USofA....


.....Money....Professionalism throughout the clubs....our kids go to college then the pros(Iknow some don't)....but the clubs are all pro...kids don't pay to play...DON'T compare it.

EW,  some of the Hanford spewage leaching into your groundwater and now your attempts to make a point?    You need Erin " I'm called a boob, Ed" Brockovich for help........ remember it's in the dust over there to, don't breath the air,  oh, but you already are doing that,  apnea..........brain central apnea.......:lol:

Kids don't pay to play, but the parents pay for their kids to play.    

Big difference in Europe and USofA.....No kidding..... :lol:

[vms]

This whole superclub stuff is getting old. Kids WILL gravitate to Xfire, WPFC, NWN,EFC and ECFC forever. There is no getting around it. Stop the BS and realize that these clubs are the elite and all the rest are pretenders. Any given year there may be a South Hill or a Spokane who shines but in the long run these clubs will be the best..End story :twisted:

[vms]

[vms]

Sorry,WPS is on the frits...

[easternwashington]

Crosssmoke used to be nothing....dont hinder from someone doing it better....


....Anywase isn't EFC Crosssmoke's farm team?

[easternwashington]

Superclubs are going to happen and are happening..but you can not limit a team that can play at that level every now and then...you can not limit a league to certain individuals/clubs....you will lose more quality players from washington state.

[lester]

Colorado used to be a feared draw at regionals. Now, about ten years after Rush Nike was organized, and about five since they totally dominated their state, they have reduced Colorado to mediocre. At over 5000 players strong they thought they could select the right kids to move up or down in the pyramid. Not so.  The teams and clubs that splinter off or have rejuvenated are carrying the weight for the state.

In CalSo, The Blues were and still are a feared competitor, but this year they didn't get one team to regionals. Bad? Not really. The Blues train at UC Irvine, the Slammers are 4 miles down the road in Newport Beach, the Irvine Strikers co-exist in The Blues own neighborhood; the Slammers and Strikers sent the GU13,14,15 representatives to regionals.  All from the same player pool. That's good for soccer in their area. Maybe not so good for The Blues, but it puts the pressure back on the club to step their program up another notch to get back on top.  Should they make special rules to force players to one club, say, The Blues?  Would that produce more or fewer good players?  A more competitive environment or less? What incentive would The Blues have to improve themselves?

I do think the best players need a place to gravitate to... Crossfire, WPS, EC... as they get older. That's where the best teams will generally come from but that is not necessarily where the best players will develop. Those clubs will get their handful of players out of each age group, but the Besagnos and Zimmermans are going to come from a direct involvement of their parents at young ages and come to them later.
The best teams are going to come by bringing together the best player from 16 competing teams, not the best 6 players from three competing teams.

In the superclub system here, Wayne Rooney would never have a chance to get started. It is just too expensive.  How many players on Crossfire or WPS live in government subsidized housing?  The clubs use the younger kids and "B" teams to carry the financial burden of the club administration and their ambitions.  We may have already pushed Washington Wayne out of soccer, unless his dad organizes a team in his neighborhood and can find someone to play against.  

PS: edmonds55- What are the "...challenges in the Super club system"?

[Squash]

I totally agree Lester. The more clubs the better for development. As you say the kids may gravitate at an older age, but they all need a place to play, develop, and shine.

The state has had success this year at regionals and most teams are from different clubs within our state. We have place multiple players at the national, most started at one club and finished at another.

The lesson is in chances, not less chances to shine.

[Dragon]

That was a great post Lester.


Washington Wayne, where are you playing now (if playing at all)? :?

[easternwashington]

Im posting on wps!!!!

[easternwashington]

seriously lester makes great points....and points that crosssmoke, their farm team(EFC), the green maching (ECFC), the boys from down under (WPFC), and the wannabes (NWN) will never realize...the best players usually end up going to them anywase...yet they want to limit those numbers of players....more teams competting the more players developed...

...CO is a great example...how is the rush doing in CO now?  :mrgreen:

[SoCal]

Great post with obvious knowledge of how things work in SoCal. SuperClubs will come and go, and need no help from the league. Parents gravitate towards winning programs, thus creating a so called SuperClub. This is how it works in SoCal. Example: I can start a team tommorrow at  club XYZ that could  reach the Premiere League(in 3 years Aprx.) we have, and be playing against the Slammers, Blues, and Surf. No barriers are in front of any team , as long as you win your league brackets every year, you keep acsending.

All new teams must start at the bottom, and earn their way to the top.

If WA is trying to have a SuperClubs only League, I would be up in arms!! .  This sounds like a money venture, that makes clubs more attractive by being exclusive.

Colorado used to be a feared draw at regionals. Now, about ten years after Rush Nike was organized, and about five since they totally dominated their state, they have reduced Colorado to mediocre. At over 5000 players strong they thought they could select the right kids to move up or down in the pyramid. Not so.  The teams and clubs that splinter off or have rejuvenated are carrying the weight for the state.

In CalSo, The Blues were and still are a feared competitor, but this year they didn't get one team to regionals. Bad? Not really. The Blues train at UC Irvine, the Slammers are 4 miles down the road in Newport Beach, the Irvine Strikers co-exist in The Blues own neighborhood; the Slammers and Strikers sent the GU13,14,15 representatives to regionals.  All from the same player pool. That's good for soccer in their area. Maybe not so good for The Blues, but it puts the pressure back on the club to step their program up another notch to get back on top.  Should they make special rules to force players to one club, say, The Blues?  Would that produce more or fewer good players?  A more competitive environment or less? What incentive would The Blues have to improve themselves?

I do think the best players need a place to gravitate to... Crossfire, WPS, EC... as they get older. That's where the best teams will generally come from but that is not necessarily where the best players will develop. Those clubs will get their handful of players out of each age group, but the Besagnos and Zimmermans are going to come from a direct involvement of their parents at young ages and come to them later.
The best teams are going to come by bringing together the best player from 16 competing teams, not the best 6 players from three competing teams.

In the superclub system here, Wayne Rooney would never have a chance to get started. It is just too expensive.  How many players on Crossfire or WPS live in government subsidized housing?  The clubs use the younger kids and "B" teams to carry the financial burden of the club administration and their ambitions.  We may have already pushed Washington Wayne out of soccer, unless his dad organizes a team in his neighborhood and can find someone to play against.  

PS: edmonds55- What are the "...challenges in the Super club system"?

[edmonds55]

Great post with obvious knowledge of how things work in SoCal. SuperClubs will come and go, and need no help from the league. Parents gravitate towards winning programs, thus creating a so called SuperClub. This is how it works in SoCal. Example: I can start a team tommorrow at  club XYZ that could  reach the Premiere League(in 3 years Aprx.) we have, and be playing against the Slammers, Blues, and Surf. No barriers are in front of any team , as long as you win your league brackets every year, you keep acsending.

All new teams must start at the bottom, and earn their way to the top.

If WA is trying to have a SuperClubs only League, I would be up in arms!! .  This sounds like a money venture, that makes clubs more attractive by being exclusive.

So SoCal, let's turn it around,  if the kids  go they start up the XYZ team and start at the bottom, instead let say those kids go to the superclubs and some make the C team, some make the B team and one or two or less make the A team of the Strikers Superclub.  Are you saying these XYZ players are developing better in the struggling bottom of the bucket team vs the superclub with the  top flight training, facilities etc that the SuperClubs have to offer?  Are you saying a player going to a small club in the Tacoma area is better off,rather  than making the A or B team of WP FC and the use of their proposed new venue and fields?  I would put my player in the superclub. No brainer. Did Clint Dempsey stay in his small town in Texas and play and develop there or did he and his family sacrifice and drive 3hrs per day to practice to play with the Superclub in Texas?  Why, why would they  take on such an arduous commute? He had a nice little club in his small town, stay there, develop, train.......If he could go back and begin his career with the small club or a super club,  which way do you think he would go. Where would he develop better, what would be the best use of his and parents resources  (money, time, etc)? The Superclub.

The challenges for the superclubs,  obviously I would say convincing everyone this is a direction necessary to raise the level of play....the best way......especially for the gifted players,  the Zimmermans, Begsanos, Kellers, McAlisters etc.........they are here....Do we want to be comfortable or do we want to be great?

By the way, what is the population base in the Slammers, Strikers, Blues, and Surf region? How many millions do they draw from?  WA region of similar proportions we draw from thousands not millions.......distinct difference there.

[easternwashington]

No doubt a distinct difference with the population...but can not limit the league to a few clubs.

[SoCal]

Edmonds who is to say what constitutes a SuperClub?  We have no guidelines in SoCal regarding SuperClubs, and they do not claim to be, it is only a figure of speach.  

  What I am saying is that the powers that be do not need to label any club a SuperClub , this is a natural occurrence, brought on by parents migrating there. Dont worry little Sally who is a star will find their way to Crossfire, without the help of the Label SUPERCLUB.

  Does Crossfire need to be labled a superclub? No because they are already there, and do not need to recruit that hard. All the good players within distance will more than likely tryout for Crossfire.  

Why shouldnt a team from Marysville or Monroe , be able to earn their way to the top in their age division, and get to play Crossfire? Are you against this type of progression?

Are you guys running a dictatorship league up there? I hope all the small and medium size teams squash this idea.

[SoCal]

[
. Did Clint Dempsey stay in his small town in Texas and play and develop there or did he and his family sacrifice and drive 3hrs per day to practice to play with the Superclub in Texas?  Why, why would they  take on such an arduous commute? .

Yes dempsey commuted to a team that was not labled SuperClub by the league, and played in an open league where you earned your way to the top.  This traveling happens down here also, you dont need any help by being in a closed curcuit.

 It is obvious that the big clubs up there are trying to monopolize the whole NorthWest.  

 I cannot believe what they are trying to do. Wake up small to medium clubs!!

[SoCal]

SoCal has 13 out of 16 in da finals  

   Good Luck WA

[edmonds55]

Edmonds who is to say what constitutes a SuperClub?  We have no guidelines in SoCal regarding SuperClubs, and they do not claim to be, it is only a figure of speach.  

  What I am saying is that the powers that be do not need to label any club a SuperClub , this is a natural occurrence, brought on by parents migrating there. Dont worry little Sally who is a star will find their way to Crossfire, without the help of the Label SUPERCLUB.

  Does Crossfire need to be labled a superclub? No because they are already there, and do not need to recruit that hard. All the good players within distance will more than likely tryout for Crossfire.  

Why shouldnt a team from Marysville or Monroe , be able to earn their way to the top in their age division, and get to play Crossfire? Are you against this type of progression?

Are you guys running a dictatorship league up there? I hope all the small and medium size teams squash this idea.

Socal,  you have the luxury of 18 million people,  you have the luxury of Cal So and Cal No,  both of whom dwarf most any other region IV state,  again by sheer numbers.  Competition raises the California play, WA has to compete against CA and  for WA to compete with the CA SO/NO, they need to not waste the early years of the best players, and to do this these players should be identified and start with the super clubs. And around here those are the NWN, the Crossfire, WP FC, ECFC in the greater Seattle, Bellevue corridor. Unfortunately they waste a lot of time playing 5-0 or more games and rarely play each other. They should start competing against equitable talent or better talent, not the other way around. Why do you think the Crossfire team does not even play in the local tournaments anymore at our age group and that started last year.   Cal So has 30 or 40 or more top flight clubs, you have to provide more opportunities/premier clubs because of the sheer volume of players.   You compete with yourselves, rarely and I mean rarely do you ever worry about the great Crossfire team or the great NWN team coming down to teach CA a lesson.

I have an idea, I'll trade you players, my son a P1/ODP WA player gets to play on one of the top Cal So team at 1991/92 birthdate, the Valley United Blast or FC Barcelona something like that and you send your son or daughter up here and put him or her on a Marysville team or an Olympia team small club team (and no disrepect intended to either), let's measure the progress between the two players, and see who progresses more,  what do you think....?

By the way if the small club idea is so great for all players,  well, you still didn't answer the question, why didn't  Clint Dempsey stay in his small town and train and develop there? Why commute three hours back and forth every practice, expense, time, family sacrifice, yet he went for the bigger club, a name club.  What club was it?  

[SoCal]

So you are saying at the highest level in WA there is still consistent blowouts in League play?  And those teams that get blown out, earned their way to the top?   Now all the big club names you mentioned before are all participating at the top already? If so why do you need to rule out 30% of the teams that are struggling to make it to the top. And if you are already playing the top teams , why not keep it as it is. Or is it because those 5 blowouts you have during league waiste your time :roll:

 This is definetly not a reason to kick those lower teams out.

And dont think because you are a SuperClub  , that you have superior coaches. Here in SoCal some of our medium size clubs have top quality coaches and teams, that can beat the SuperClubs consistently.

[edmonds55]

So you are saying at the highest level in WA there is still consistent blowouts in League play?  And those teams that get blown out, earned their way to the top?   Now all the big club names you mentioned before are all participating at the top already? If so why do you need to rule out 30% of the teams that are struggling to make it to the top. And if you are already playing the top teams , why not keep it as it is. Or is it because those 5 blowouts you have during league waiste your time :roll:

 This is definetly not a reason to kick those lower teams out.

And dont think because you are a SuperClub  , that you have superior coaches. Here in SoCal some of our medium size clubs have top quality coaches and teams, that can beat the SuperClubs consistently.

No, at U13 and below there has not been any real p1 system, it it only at u14, and then it is determined the p1, p2 and so on, league placement, with head to head, but even that is suspect, because of the random draw which determines who you play, a bad draw and could be p2 or p3.  I believe it would be most beneficial at u11 or even earlier if possible to identify and place the top players. CA starts select at Y8, right? If the top WA players are encouraged to develop at the earliest they can, they may be able to compete against CA, do small clubs offer the best chance for that or the big clubs? I think the super clubs offer far more than the small clubs, especially at the early ages.  If you look at the resume of the coaches here in WA,  the Superclubs time and time again offer the best bang for the buck......The superclubs are trying to get the best players at an earlier age to develop properly and compete at higher level, better overall teams in Region IV  and on the National level.  CA must be seeking to improve their's as well, don't you think.

By the way, you didn't answer my proposal,  my player trains and develops with the Valley United Blast and yours some small club up here in WA,  I'd  be happy to pick one out for you.  What do you say?

[SoCal]

By officially naming crossfire a superclub, how will that attract a kid  more from Marysville? The Parents already know Crossfire is one of the best clubs around, and will travel if they think their kid is good enough.

 On the other hand the smaller clubs have to deal with the natural pull of the big clubs, you cannot stop it.

Your question:  Currently my kid could star for your sall town club, so I would probably travel to VUSC Blast to be on a better team. Granted the coach qualified that is. Good clubs can have terrible coaches, as most SuperClubs recruit and not develope.

Travel would be a 25 mile radius.

[SoCal]

We start at U-9 in Los Angeles, San Diego at U8. After the U9 season the progression starts, and the winning teams move up to higher brackets. And this is wide open to all teams registered with the league, there is not exclusive closed league. XYZ can develop a top team and move right up to the top, if it can retain there top players over the years

[edmonds55]

By officially naming crossfire a superclub, how will that attract a kid  more from Marysville? The Parents already know Crossfire is one of the best clubs around, and will travel if they think their kid is good enough.

 On the other hand the smaller clubs have to deal with the natural pull of the big clubs, you cannot stop it.

Your question:  Currently my kid could star for your sall town club, so I would probably travel to VUSC Blast to be on a better team. Granted the coach qualified that is. Good clubs can have terrible coaches, as most SuperClubs recruit and not develope.

Travel would be a 25 mile radius.

Socal,  no you aren't answering my proposal, once again,  you have your "kid" play on the small club in WA for a year or two  and I will send my "kid" to the Valley United Blast,  which "kid" will develop more?  Which "kid" will get the best training and return on their investment?    I rest my case............