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Author Topic: Tournaments and "guest" players  (Read 4522 times)

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cicinho_fan

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Tournaments and "guest" players
« on: August 07, 2006, 10:12:16 PM »

Hi,

Had a discussion with a parent today about tournaments and guest players.

If our discussion below is incorrect, feel free to correct me.

Since "points" for clubs is given for winning tournaments, should less points be given for a tournament win if guest players are used?

Another thought is that some clubs will pull players down from the upper level teams to the lower level teams in order to win lower level tournaments and points for the club. Should there be a limit on upper level players playing lower level tournament? I have been told that some indoor centers have a similar rule to keep the high level (1st div) teams playing each other and let 2nd division teams play each other and be fair about it.

I don't have a problem with 1-2 guest players but I have heard of some teams talking 3 or even more 1st div players to play on a 2nd division team for a tournament.

With all the tournaments so far this summer, has anyone seen this so far?

No, I'm not pointing fingers.

C-Fan
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dogedog

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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 10:21:09 PM »

It happens a lot.  Guest players are common to help out those teams that enter a tourney and then find out that 3 players will be missing.

I have seen what you are talking about.  The more tournaments your club wins the better you look to kids thinking of switching.  Is it right?    

My thoughts are 1 or 2 guest players most likely will not make a difference.  Can they help the team sure, but they have to have some support.
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 10:22:36 PM »

Interesting topic since just this weekend the Blastoff tournament ran into this issue. They specifically state in their rules that no team will be allowed to use guests from higher level teams.
This includes kids that play up and want to play their age for the tournament.
We found that our DD was not allowed to guest for a U-11 PDL team, even though shes only 10... because she is rostered on a U-12 non-pdl  team for the Fall.
The tournament directors told us that themselves.
We also found out that they made other guests discontinue their guest play in the middle of the tournament because they were considered higher level players than the team they guested for.

But.... I agree that just one or two "shouldnt" make that huge of a difference. But I could be wrong...  ;)

That is the only tournament that I know of that limits who can guest.

But... all teams have tournaments where they find they are short players due to Summer vacations.
I think guest playing is great and am all for it.......... as long as every team follows the tournament rules.
 :mrgreen:

By the way... what points are you speaking of?  Are you talking about BC's rankings?
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Dragon

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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 10:23:08 PM »

Teams get points for what??

Is it important :lol:

If points lead towards placement or end of year award or sumthin then yes, Gp's should be limited to 2.  If not that important, then should be allowed 3-4 ;)

Most teams use Tournaments as marketing tools to say; "look what we won" to draw mo kids.  

Most coachs though look at tournaments for development and experience.  Dragon is sure though at da higher levels it is all about the $$ ;)
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Victory

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Re: Tournaments and "guest" players
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 10:26:44 PM »

Quote from: "cicinho_fan"
Hi,

Had a discussion with a parent today about tournaments and guest players.

If our discussion below is incorrect, feel free to correct me.

Since "points" for clubs is given for winning tournaments, should less points be given for a tournament win if guest players are used?

Another thought is that some clubs will pull players down from the upper level teams to the lower level teams in order to win lower level tournaments and points for the club. Should there be a limit on upper level players playing lower level tournament? I have been told that some indoor centers have a similar rule to keep the high level (1st div) teams playing each other and let 2nd division teams play each other and be fair about it.

I don't have a problem with 1-2 guest players but I have heard of some teams talking 3 or even more 1st div players to play on a 2nd division team for a tournament.

With all the tournaments so far this summer, has anyone seen this so far?

No, I'm not pointing fingers.

C-Fan


With same club teams B teams are showing up with many of the same players as the A teams.   Not sure what I think about it but it is happening
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Mighty Mouse

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2006, 10:29:25 PM »

my daughter (LCC) loves to guest play!!!!! she would do it full time if she could hahaha.  (no offense care bear) ;)
she was told she couldnt' guest play for blast off either :(
I dont see anything wrong with a gp playing down in a tourny though (if they are at age), one player should not make that much of a difference so just let the kids play ;)
i think guest playing is a great chance to meet other familys and friends thou and i think kids should do it as much as they can :D
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MA

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« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2006, 10:30:35 PM »

HI MM..............   Both our DDs were bummed about it but they got to WATCH the other kids play!!!!  :roll:  ;)
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dogedog

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Re: Tournaments and "guest" players
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2006, 10:32:57 PM »

Quote from: "Victory"

With same club teams B teams are showing up with many of the same players as the A teams.   Not sure what I think about it but it is happening


I have seen it as well in fact a couple of times I thought it was the "A" team even though I knew it was the "B".  

Funny how it could affect BC's rankings never thought of that.

I also think guest playing is great.
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Dragon

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006, 10:33:38 PM »

Maybe you guys should come down ta cowtown and let you DD's play fo some Great teams............hint hint :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Mighty Mouse

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« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2006, 10:35:37 PM »

Quote from: "Dragon"
Maybe you guys should come down ta cowtown and let you DD's play fo some Great teams............hint hint :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:




when your daughters team beats my daughters team then we can talk.  muuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh :twisted:


jk ;)   you know we love you D :D  :D  :D
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dogedog

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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2006, 10:35:43 PM »

Quote from: "Dragon"
Maybe you guys should come down ta cowtown and let you DD's play fo some Great teams............hint hint :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


Yeah like anyone would want my DD.  Saw her this weekend ride the pine.  Now I know how D feels.
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Dragon

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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 10:37:13 PM »

Quote from: "Mighty Mouse"
Quote from: "Dragon"
Maybe you guys should come down ta cowtown and let you DD's play fo some Great teams............hint hint :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:




when your daughters team beats my daughters team then we can talk.  muuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh :twisted:


jk ;)   you know we love you D :D  :D  :D



Oh you so gonna get it Midget :evil:

My DD will Squash you DD anyday of the week :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 ;)
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Dragon

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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 10:38:04 PM »

Quote from: "dogedog"
Quote from: "Dragon"
Maybe you guys should come down ta cowtown and let you DD's play fo some Great teams............hint hint :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


Yeah like anyone would want my DD.  Saw her this weekend ride the pine. Now I know how D feels.



DOH! :shock:  :oops:  :oops:
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Honky

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« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2006, 10:53:18 PM »

Quote from: "Dragon"


My DD will Squash you DD anyday of the week


I saw that on a bumper sticker.
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Dragon

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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2006, 10:53:58 PM »

THat was MY car! :shock:
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dogedog

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« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2006, 10:58:18 PM »

Hey D looks like Honky got good tweezers for us to borrow. :shock:

I have even heard of a player guesting for two teams at two different tourneys the same weekend :shock:
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cicinho_fan

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« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2006, 11:11:01 PM »

I remember (maybe) reading somewhere a ranking system using point based on how well a club did in the fall season and how many tournaments they won in the summer.

I remember Crossfire being #1 and cannot remember others.

Did I read it somewhere thet something like this was also used to determine the clubs considered "premier"?
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Dragon

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« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2006, 11:32:23 PM »

Quote from: "cicinho_fan"
I remember (maybe) reading somewhere a ranking system using point based on how well a club did in the fall season and how many tournaments they won in the summer.

I remember Crossfire being #1 and cannot remember others.

Did I read it somewhere thet something like this was also used to determine the clubs considered "premier"?


most of the ranking places are in fun or not worth beans, D wouldn't worry bout it ;)
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dogedog

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« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2006, 11:36:30 PM »

Quote from: "cicinho_fan"
I remember (maybe) reading somewhere a ranking system using point based on how well a club did in the fall season and how many tournaments they won in the summer.

I remember Crossfire being #1 and cannot remember others.

Did I read it somewhere thet something like this was also used to determine the clubs considered "premier"?


Yes, like this site http://www.gotsoccer.com/rankings2003/RankingsForums.asp?topic=1180&query=NationalGirls12

For example Surf Cup would be worth more points then the Evergreen International do to the quality of teams.  For each tournament you won get so many points.

Someone from the team or club submit this information to the site.
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Dragon

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« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2006, 11:37:20 PM »

prob is, some teams never submit kaka, there fo the site is a "bust" :lol:
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« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2006, 11:40:27 PM »

Looks like a lot of the top teams already submit this year for 94's

http://www.gotsoccer.com/rankings2003/RankingsForums.asp?topic=247&query=StateGirls12WA
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2006, 11:43:35 PM »

.......and da point is?? :roll:

Dragon just wonder what the big "hub bub"?

Dragon think our rankings mean just as much :lol:

Maybe Dragon should go National with his rankings :lol:  :lol:
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dogedog

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2006, 11:49:07 PM »

Quote from: "Dragon"
.......and da point is?? :roll:

Dragon just wonder what the big "hub bub"?

Dragon think our rankings mean just as much :lol:

Maybe Dragon should go National with his rankings :lol:  :lol:


Don't really care.  The thread thought teams might look at this more thus pondering guest players, when BC's rankings go National then we all care.
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Dragon

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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2006, 11:53:40 PM »

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:


too true.  Think Parents care WAY too much bout rankings...........

Did your DD team learn?

Did they have fun?

Does your DD still love the beautiful game?

These questions my friends, are all that matters :mrgreen:
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dogedog

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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2006, 11:57:49 PM »

Quote from: "Dragon"
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:


too true.  Think Parents care WAY too much bout rankings...........



 :shock:

What?  Those rankings are EVERYTHING.
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2006, 12:02:23 AM »

Only to some people. :roll:  Not this CP. ;)
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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2006, 12:17:39 AM »

Asssuming they're having fun, the most the kids can play, the better.  If that's guesting on someone else's team, then so be it.
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« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2006, 01:41:16 AM »

Got soccer rankings only count tournaments played after August (if the system is still the same).  Points are given for league play and most of all for state cup finish. it may have changed in the last year or so.

Tournaments are given points according to their status as premier, gold, silver, etc.  There are no premier tournaments in Washington.  Tournaments must meet certain criteria to move up in standing, such as attracting out of state competition, which is why tournaments such as Rainier Challenge and Crossfire want out of state teams to come.

Got soccer rankings are submitted by parents and don't mean much but can be fun bragging rights.  Tournament rankings mean quite a bit.  A close game or tie at Surf, Disney or Mustang means much more than a win at Chinook or Sun and Surf to college coaches.  But at U-11 or even U-14, so what?  I think that ranking the younger children only gets the parents more competitive, not the kids.
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« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2006, 01:43:11 AM »

Quote from: "Dragon"
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:


too true.  Think Parents care WAY too much bout rankings...........

Did your DD team learn?

Did they have fun?

Does your DD still love the beautiful game?

These questions my friends, are all that matters :mrgreen:


Great points Dragon, and I would like to add something for some of you CP's to think about along these same lines.  First off, the following IS NOT associated with the idea of having guest players from other clubs, but is strictly related to the situation where players within the same club (and who normally play up a year) end up guest playing down on a team that is their own age group (i.e. a U-11 player that normally plays up on the U-12 team but is playing on their own club’s age appropriate U-11 team for a given game and/or tournament).  

Some CP's (probably on the losing end of the stick) think those clubs are doing this “just” to get wins, get tournament hardware, promote their club, etc.  Did you ever stop to think there might be more to it as well?  Did you ever take the time to realize that if a player who normally plays up doesn’t have anything going on in a given weekend, that it's probably very good for development purposes for that player to go ahead and play down with the other team of their normal age group for a couple reasons?  First it gives them more touches and game experience, but it also gives them a chance to get to know the other girls (on and off the field) they will probably be playing with in the years to come when they drop back down to their own age group. Is it good for the club too?  Well, yeah maybe.  But, CPs should be more worried about whether it’s also good for the kids, and I think the answer is a definite YES as long as playing time is handled appropriately.  

So, when you see a team/club that is doing this, maybe don't be so quick to look at it as them having an advantage due to the players playing down with that team for that tournament.  Yet, maybe instead it should be looked at as a huge disadvantage for that team/club in more general terms because that lower team normally doesn't get to have that obviously very talented player on their team ALL THE TIME because she's typically playing up within the same club.  I just wanted to point out one other way to look at the situation.   I think it's a win / win situation in the long run for the player and club.  So, don’t be the person / team that gets beat and uses this as an excuse for not advancing in a tournament.  Instead, give the other team some credit for the talent they have and recognize that you simply did not have what it took to advance that particular weekend and the other team is doing what’s best for the development of their players.  

PS…In case you’re wondering Mufasa, the WPFC U-11 Black team did not have any guest players…just our own 12 for both Beaverton and Blastoff.  Yeah BABY!!!!  :mrgreen:  This post is talking in general terms, not situation specific.
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« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2006, 08:12:22 AM »

I don't think they should stop a "high level player" from guesting on a "lower level team".

Just because a DD plays for the higher level team does not make her a superstar and better then DD on a lower level team.
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