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[FanInRed]

You make a few good points here. What I like to ask myself is what is the best way to compete at the a larger level? the answer is to have less teams so the talent pool is greater to choose from for one team (just like the acadamy).  If the PDL just took selected teams in each year then would that push the kids o certain clubs and in doing so raise the talent pool to select from? no of course not. But by only selecting certain clubs its pushing the kids towards those clubs, which raises there player pools, which allows them to pick a stronger team, and compete at a higher level.  You will ALWAYS have those teams that defy the odds (crush for example), but overall you can deny clubs like crossfire, wpfc and other bigger pdl clubs are solid year in and out becuase of the talent pools they get to draw from.

But you seem to have hit upon the point exactly... are these clubs successful because they develop well, or because they are large?  If as you say, we keep concentrating the inflow of kids to a smaller number of clubs, then by default these clubs will be competitive since they will receive the most talented players... even if they don't do the best job of development.   These large clubs have been the most successful at State tournaments for years before the PDL came along...  Crossfire, EFC, ECFC and WPFC all draw from home associations with very large populations.  This allows them them start off with a higher selection of athletes, and along with reasonably good coaching they can put up successful teams, especially at the younger ages.  By older ages, the talent influx continues to successful teams.  To quote Stalin - quantity has a quality all its own... What hasn't been proven is whether concentration of athletes into fewer programs will also result in better training and development...  I'd posit that given enough of a player pool and financial resources, along with exclusivity rules, any reasonably capable organization could put forward competitive teams. Incompetence can actually survive and even thrive in large and monolithic organizations.  While we've been patient with the PDL so far, it hasn't filled me with confidence that this expensive experiment is the right thing to do for our children.   Perhaps we can put up stronger teams at the Regionals, but will it help us actually grow soccer as a American sport, or develop better players?

[Black Knight]

You make a few good points here. What I like to ask myself is what is the best way to compete at the a larger level? the answer is to have less teams so the talent pool is greater to choose from for one team (just like the acadamy).  If the PDL just took selected teams in each year then would that push the kids o certain clubs and in doing so raise the talent pool to select from? no of course not. But by only selecting certain clubs its pushing the kids towards those clubs, which raises there player pools, which allows them to pick a stronger team, and compete at a higher level.  You will ALWAYS have those teams that defy the odds (crush for example), but overall you can deny clubs like crossfire, wpfc and other bigger pdl clubs are solid year in and out becuase of the talent pools they get to draw from.

But you seem to have hit upon the point exactly... are these clubs successful because they develop well, or because they are large?  If as you say, we keep concentrating the inflow of kids to a smaller number of clubs, then by default these clubs will be competitive since they will receive the most talented players... even if they don't do the best job of development.   These large clubs have been the most successful at State tournaments for years before the PDL came along...  Crossfire, EFC, ECFC and WPFC all draw from home associations with very large populations.  This allows them them start off with a higher selection of athletes, and along with reasonably good coaching they can put up successful teams, especially at the younger ages.  By older ages, the talent influx continues to successful teams.  To quote Stalin - quantity has a quality all its own... What hasn't been proven is whether concentration of athletes into fewer programs will also result in better training and development...  I'd posit that given enough of a player pool and financial resources, along with exclusivity rules, any reasonably capable organization could put forward competitive teams.

So basically what your saying is if we took a smaller club like patriots for example and gave them the same resources as crossfire then the wod also put forward the same teams? seems like a pretty empty statement, of course thats the case. I would say though another big reason those bigger clubs are doing well is since they have grownand jumped to the top they also attract very good coaches to their program which in turn attracts even more players. everyone is saying that just becuase its the pdl does that mean its better development? well they are right, we really dont know for sure, but just becuase its not pdl does that mean those clubs are developing better then pdl clubs? if that makes sense.

[FanInRed]

So basically what your saying is if we took a smaller club like patriots for example and gave them the same resources as crossfire then the wod also put forward the same teams? seems like a pretty empty statement, of course thats the case. I would say though another big reason those bigger clubs are doing well is since they have grownand jumped to the top they also attract very good coaches to their program which in turn attracts even more players. everyone is saying that just becuase its the pdl does that mean its better development? well they are right, we really dont know for sure, but just becuase its not pdl does that mean those clubs are developing better then pdl clubs? if that makes sense.

Yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.  I'm not familiar with the Patriots but I believe they're from the Renton area.  The south-east King County area has always had many fragmented associations.  If the Patriots represented a larger association, like Crossfire or WPFC, why wouldn't they be as successful?  Imagine if Renton, Kent, Maple Valley and Auburn were combined into one association - it would probably still be smaller than Crossfire/LWYSA, but their top Patriots team would have the talent base that is currently spread out among GRFC, Dos, Marauders and Synergy.  I would bet that someone like Leighton O'Brien could build one or two highly competitive teams at every age level from this larger group of girls.

Look, I don't know if coaching is better within or outside the PDL.  Frankly, there are sure to be great coaches everywhere, as well as bad ones.  However, let's not conflate the historical size and success of our large clubs with the quality of coaching within the PDL... THAT has not been proven, and given the PDL's rather arbitrary rules and operations, it may never be proven.  Who benefits from that?

[Black Knight]

Yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.  I'm not familiar with the Patriots but I believe they're from the Renton area.  The south-east King County area has always had many fragmented associations.  If the Patriots represented a larger association, like Crossfire or WPFC, why wouldn't they be as successful?  Imagine if Renton, Kent, Maple Valley and Auburn were combined into one association - it would probably still be smaller than Crossfire/LWYSA, but their top Patriots team would have the talent base that is currently spread out among GRFC, Dos, Marauders and Synergy.  I would bet that someone like Leighton O'Brien could build one or two highly competitive teams at every age level from this larger group of girls.

Look, I don't know if coaching is better within or outside the PDL.  Frankly, there are sure to be great coaches everywhere, as well as bad ones.  However, let's not conflate the historical size and success of our large clubs with the quality of coaching within the PDL... THAT has not been proven, and given the PDL's rather arbitrary rules and operations, it may never be proven.  Who benefits from that?

You are right, its very hard to evaluate coaching at any level. Which brings me to another good question.

Do those coaches for those big clubs make their name, or dothe teams that they are basically given make their names for them? basically would a megson still be so well known if it wasn't for the fact that hes coaching for a club where at any age group he will have a top caliber team?

[sacdad]

I just read all of the posts and as usual I have forgot most of what I wanted to say.  

When considering the amount of clubs (not teams) that participate in the PDL I think the amount of time the league has been around has to come into play.  correct me if I'm wrong, but is this year 3 or is it 4?  I seem to remember 2 years ago looking at standings plus under PDL and only seeing 4 or 5 clubs at most. The schedule was pretty simple, play eachother 2 or 3 times a season.....yawn!!  At inception it may have been a grand idea.............but now how many clubs are involved?  I am not arguing that any club should be excluded, I am just saying it is growing into something that is being complained about as much as the state league was complained about.  

The bottom line is that while we are arguing about whether the best interest of the kids is being looked after or whether the coaches/directors are making money and not caring about anything else  etc.......etc........I wonder if we are missing the fact that we are in the middle of a huge explosion of growth in this sport.  There are soooooooooo many teams that qualify as "select" today.  That's a good thing......right?  I can remember (not all that long ago) going to a summer tournament and getting a friday game, two saturday games and then the semi's & finals on sunday.  Now you have to get there on thursday and play 1 game a day and be lucky if there is evan a semi final it seems.......(I don't know where I was gong with all this).......I don't know how the LPT went for U14 this year but I will bet it was a little more exciting than it was the previous year with the exit of the PDL clubs........

And what's with making a big deal about whether a coach gets paid or not?  sheesh......my goal in life is to raise my kids "properly" hopefully they will all go to college and eventually be able to support themselves with a career.  If one is fortunate enough to be able to grow and play this game in college or beyond and has a strong desire to make coaching a career or a supplemental career then go for it........I admire the volunteer coaches in our rec leagues that do it cause they enjoy seeing their children and others grow and have fun......I admire the high school band teacher that comes in early to teach 4th and 5th graders how to play instruments because he loves music and seeing kids learn.  When a child grows beyond what a coach or teacher can teach them it is time to step to the next level...........and so on.

..........and last, as a parent I have had nothing but positive experience with my younger DD who plays for a team that participates in the PDL.  She really has no clue what all the banter is........she loves her team, her coach and playing soccer.  For the first time she is actually challenged as a player, and plays as part of a team.....not as an individual.  I love that on any given practice day or game day there will be 2 or 3 or more coaches from the "club" present...........each with a different perspective than the other......each appearing to absolutely love being there and sharing their knowledge with my child.  That may sound like a load of cr@p but for me my money was well spent.......as long as there are kids that want to play at the highest level they can achieve and there are parents that support that rather than laugh at them for having dreams then things like the PDL will serve a purpose......

[Fab]

Yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.  I'm not familiar with the Patriots but I believe they're from the Renton area.  The south-east King County area has always had many fragmented associations.  If the Patriots represented a larger association, like Crossfire or WPFC, why wouldn't they be as successful?  Imagine if Renton, Kent, Maple Valley and Auburn were combined into one association - it would probably still be smaller than Crossfire/LWYSA, but their top Patriots team would have the talent base that is currently spread out among GRFC, Dos, Marauders and Synergy.  I would bet that someone like Leighton O'Brien could build one or two highly competitive teams at every age level from this larger group of girls.

Look, I don't know if coaching is better within or outside the PDL.  Frankly, there are sure to be great coaches everywhere, as well as bad ones.  However, let's not conflate the historical size and success of our large clubs with the quality of coaching within the PDL... THAT has not been proven, and given the PDL's rather arbitrary rules and operations, it may never be proven.  Who benefits from that?

You are right, its very hard to evaluate coaching at any level. Which brings me to another good question.

Do those coaches for those big clubs make their name, or dothe teams that they are basically given make their names for them? basically would a megson still be so well known if it wasn't for the fact that hes coaching for a club where at any age group he will have a top caliber team?

It's been my experience that very few large clubs develop their players. They expect them to be developed or to be top athletes when they tryout at U11. One PDL coach told me he knew he was shortchanging his kids because he had to focus on tactics over technical training because he was under pressure to win. I know of small select clubs where the coaching is marginal at best.

The point is that there are good and bad coaches everywhere. But leagues sanctioned by the WSYSA, and funded by all of us, should promote a system of open competition. Placement of teams and clubs should be based on merit and the competition will sort out the strong from the weak and everything else in between. Placing teams of similar skills and ability and then letting them climb higher or sink lower is a good thing. Promotion and relegation forces players to be sharp and be pushed. It is also democratic because it gives anyone a chance, theoretically.

Look, many of the PDL A teams will occupy the top league under any scenario, but there will be maverick, or rogue team, that make a run for a variety of reasons, i.e. good coach, good players that stick together, whatever. The Parrots come to mind. That's the beauty of sport, especially in this country, to root for the underdog, to give every kid the possiblity to dream, to reach his or her potential. And why is the PDL denying that?

If the PDL teams have such good programs, they shouldn't be threatened by small clubs or rogue teams. There is enough talent to go around. Why should Crossfire have A to Z teams? Look at the Commissioner's Cup at U11. It's kind of embarrassing, really. There's like six or seven GU-11 Xfire teams. The parents are paying $2,000 a year for their daughters to all train the same way, learn one culture of soccer and then play each other in the state cup. Who benefits from that? And if the girls or parents think they will advance to the A teams, they will be bitterly disappointed. They are paying a lot of money for nothing.

 But it's a free market and parents and kids can choose to play and pay for whatever team they want. But it's hard to accept that the same PDL clubs want to shut everyone else out from the competition, and the reason why leads back to economics and players. The PDL would only strengthen its cuase by embracing choice and welcoming diversity.  And they should let the play on the pitch decide the questions of where teams should be placed. Not a smoke-filled backroom of doc buddies who have an inherent conflict of interest -- they benefit enormously from keeping the league exclusive whether they perform or not.

The reason they don't is that their pay-to-play model rests on shaky economic foundations. One way to eliminate that concern is create a monopoly league that keeps out potential threats to the model, teams and clubs that provide the same service for much lower cost, for example. Such choice and competition kills the model if the PDL club's program is mediocre. But the best PDL clubs theoretically should do just fine under any scenario. So what are you afraid of?

[Black Knight]

Fab, i guess my answer to a lot of what you are saying has to do with waht would happen if pdl were open to any team. Wouldn't that be the same thing as the state league? any team that wants to can try out for it? If we are having htis much problem with the PDL and the state league living together right  now think about how bad it would be if you had two state leagues trying to compete. You have to draw the line some where. I dont htink its simple economics I honestly believe a lot of DOC's simply want a league where they have more control and can do what they feel is best for the league. Is taht so much different then the board of wsysa making changes and doing what they feel is best for their league?

[Dragon]

All D has to say is when will all of this ever stop?

Lets have the PDL absorb everything or the state absorb everything...

It is too hard to follow so many darn brackets :lol:

[Fab]

Black Knight,  there is a way to do it, without going into all the details. Other regional leagues and state associations do it. It's not all that difficult. No one disagrees with matching teams of similar ability into leagues so that everyone benefits from good competition. Everyone is in agreement with that. And we have the PDL docs to thank for pushing that issue. But the pdl docs should not be running the leagues because of their inherent conflict of interest. We're already witnessing the fall out because the docs have not demonstrated that they can be trusted or fair minded, and in some cases, they are not ethical. That's okay. They are top competitors, after all. They are like Wall Street traders: they'll take everything they can grab and then try to horde it for themselves and their frat buddies. They want to dominant and rule the world, or in this case rule elite soccer in this state. It's called a monopoly and we know what happens to monoplies, eventually. That's why the state needs to intervene and take over the leagues. True, the state association has been about as responsive as former soviet state agency, but that could be changing. It seems like the new state president is making a lot of positive changes, making the state association more responsive to everyone's needs. So, I hope the prez will come to the rescue on this issue and save the PDL docs from their own worst instincts. We all need an impartial referee, because we're all in this together. And if we all want the same outcomes for kids, then we can't have one conflicted group with a financial incentive setting the agenda for everyone else. The PDL docs have to learn how to play fair. No cheating, please. Keep those elbows in and let's try the level of soccer for everyone.