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[scottgallagher72]

As of late, the question comes to mind "Is WSYSA an effective governing body?"  With the recent challenges for teams to travel due to weather conditions this question has become more relevant than not.  As we watched weather conditions worsen, it seems that the WSYSA was all of a sudden MIA.  Let's point out what happened last weekend.  Instead of the WSYSA stepping up to make some tough decisions, they decided to sit on the sidelines and allow teams to make independent decisions about whether or not to travel.  OH but one could say they did make a statement!  I would say that statement was about as non authoritative as baby babble.   I guess if they are in the business of making non committal ambiguous statements then they excelled greatly.  I for one can't believe that you allow the integrity of the state tournaments be compromised and sit on the sidelines and do nothing about it.  I've seen comments from what I would suppose be officials in the WSYSA stating "you don't come to the meetings so you really don't have a say".  This is not about going to meetings.  This is about coming out and making the tough decisions that any governing body would have to make in light of the circumstances at hand.  Rules are in place to level the playing field and by not enforcing those rules you've allowed certain teams to obtain competitive advantages that frankly are impossible to overcome.  This in turn, does not create the most competitive environment for the later stages in the state tournament.  I for one am not reluctant to sit back and not say anything.  Every team out there has been preparing for a year to play in these tournaments and in some instances the hard work of these teams was not rewarded.  So I say to WPS posters, give me your thoughts on non stance that WSYSA showed us in the past weeks.  I'm sure there will be conflicting views, but I for one know exactly where I stand unlike WSYSA!!!!!!

[Old Dog]

[/b]As of late, the question comes to mind "Is WSYSA an effective governing body?"  With the recent challenges for teams to travel due to weather conditions this question has become more relevant than not.  As we watched weather conditions worsen, it seems that the WSYSA was all of a sudden MIA.  Let's point out what happened last weekend.  Instead of the WSYSA stepping up to make some tough decisions, they decided to sit on the sidelines and allow teams to make independent decisions about whether or not to travel.  OH but one could say they did make a statement!  I would say that statement was about as non authoritative as baby babble.   I guess if they are in the business of making non committal ambiguous statements then they excelled greatly.  I for one can't believe that you allow the integrity of the state tournaments be compromised and sit on the sidelines and do nothing about it.  I've seen comments from what I would suppose be officials in the WSYSA stating "you don't come to the meetings so you really don't have a say".  This is not about going to meetings.  This is about coming out and making the tough decisions that any governing body would have to make in light of the circumstances at hand.  Rules are in place to level the playing field and by not enforcing those rules you've allowed certain teams to obtain competitive advantages that frankly are impossible to overcome.  This in turn, does not create the most competitive environment for the later stages in the state tournament.  I for one am not reluctant to sit back and not say anything.  Every team out there has been preparing for a year to play in these tournaments and in some instances the hard work of these teams was not rewarded.  So I say to WPS posters, give me your thoughts on non stance that WSYSA showed us in the past weeks.  I'm sure there will be conflicting views, but I for one know exactly where I stand unlike WSYSA!!!!!!

Question.

Scott, do you hold the whole "system" at fault or the elected officer entrusted with organizing and running the tournaments?

[scottgallagher72]

Well Old Dog,  I think it's a combination of both.  It takes a commitee to make those types of decisions.  As the president you have a resounding say in what that commitee come up with.  The fact of the matter is, no one stepped up to the plate.  I heard more excuses as to why than anything.  With the relevance of the WSYSA being challenged by the PDL anyway, this was a great time for them to step up and do the right thing.  Sometimes the right decision is not always the most popular, but it keeps the integrity of the game in tact.

[goldentoe]

Scott,

I think I need to agree with you here.  I heard of one age group (I think BU-14) where they were considering doing coin flips to decide the winner of games since Wenatchee could not travel due to the snow.  Now, if Wenatchee wins those coin tosses, that means they move forward to the next round where they still could not make a game due to the weather.  Is that fair to everyone else?  I realize it is not there fault it snowed over there but this team could advance all the way to finals on coin flips.  Where is the justice in that?

The rule used to be that if the pass was closed you did not travel and we rescheduled the game.  If it was open, you were expected to make the game.  It was also suggested that you travel the night before the game in case you ran into this problem.

The President seems very decisive privately but when it comes to going public he seems to disappear.

[scottgallagher72]

My thoughts exactly!  Let's face it, there really was not a fair way to everyone to approach the situation, but if the WSYSA steps up and says this is the way it is for everyone in this situation then I don't have problem with it.  Now you have teams that are on both sides of the equation.  Some are enduring a coin flip while others had to travel under the worst circumstances.  There should be one voice and direction for everyone involved!

[Old Dog]

Scott/Goldentoe

I guess I disagree with you.

I mean you have the VP of Competition who is responsible for the tournament and then that office appoints the Tournament Director.

Solution, bring all the State tournaments in house, stop using volunteers to run them. Heaven knows with what they charge and make off the tournaments they could afford too.

[goldentoe]

While I like your idea, the issue with bringing it in house is that everyone in the office has to be worried the board will reprimand them for making such a decision that they could not make themselves.

I can honestly say that I am speaking from experience on this one.

Also, the WSY board does not follow it's own procedure.  The VP of Comp is responsible for the Championship Cup and the VP of Development is responsible for the Challenge and Commissioners' Cup.  Yet the VP of Comp is in charge of all cups at the meetings.  At least she was last year.  I NEVER saw the VP of Development at one state cup meeting last year.

That brings up another point.  The State Cup Committee is given too much power and that supports Scott's point.  You have 40 plus Association Reps making decisions regarding everyone else.  So, if you have an issue coming up you want to make nice with everyone else so you agree to do something like a coin flip to determine a winner rather then making the tough decision and removing a team from the tournament and giving them there money back.

Who has stood up to the PDL?  No one.  Maybe they are starting too now but only because Crossfire and a few others are looking at other options.  WSY was worried about the super clubs pulling out and going to US Club Soccer so they put up with the PDL.  But since they did not do anything as Scott said (no leadership), they are losing some of those clubs to US Club Soccer anyway.  

Just my two cents.

[scottgallagher72]

I guess you could say that is a great way of deflecting the attention from yourself as a governing body.  So you are telling me that the Championship Committee Chair made a decision without any direction from the WSYSA?  Way to hang one of their own out to dry!  This was an organizational decision to sit back on their laurels!

[goldentoe]

You have the jest but not quite all the story.  It is the COMMITTEE that makes the decisions for the VP of COMP and the Tournament chairs.

The WSYSA Board really has no voice unless they choose to step up which has never happened unless there was lawsuit coming. Then it is the path of least resistance.

[93soccerdad]

Ultimately for an Association to be successful, they need to have professional management.  Too many issues to handle effectively as committees of volunteers.  While you still want your committees for oversight purposes, professionals should be handling tournaments, events, etc.  they at least have expertise and TIME to focus on these issues...

[goldentoe]

I would agree with you but the amount of pay would be minimal for such a position that it really would not be a professional.

[scottgallagher72]

I agree as well, but if you take on the position it's your obligation whether paid or not to do what is right.  There are a good number of teams who really got a raw deal based upon the indecision.  I've heard some complain about a coin flip, but at the end of the day this would have made things fair if everyone had to do it.  Having some teams schedule their own games is just opening up the door for foul play.  Consistency with everyone involved is what was needed and it does not take a pay check or professional organization to achieve that.  I think sometimes we just make excuses for WSYSA's  lack leadership.

[PrideNJoy]

well well well, I've two sides to my thinking and landing in the middle would suit me, and I think that's where it's at now.  

Committees, volunteers, however it's put seems best to me.  These are the folks who have less impure motives than money, networking, favoritism.  Just my opinion, but I think WYS is doing a good job despite what's been said here.  Who else, professional or otherwise would've been able to deal with the recent weather and travel issues any better?  I know I know, there are at least 100 posters here who stated the best/better way, but honestly, are those views considerate of the entire field of teams?  I don't know, I just think relaxing a bit and going with the flow will show that in the end getting all worked up was a waste of energy and time.  

You can bet there will be more factors they'll consider for next year, based in part I'm sure to the posts made here.  But don't think for a second that these volunteers and stuff are out to screw other people or protect their asses.  That's a joke to me.  They could leave in a second and then we'd see just how great a job others could do with the job.  YIKES

Thank you WYS, keep on truckin

[scottgallagher72]

No one's really whining just to whine.  I think the point is that if you are going to make decisions, then make then based upon being fair for each and every team involved.  I know that even sometimes the fair way is not going to be the best way for some.  The fact that there are so many different things happening, the state has opened this up for discussion.  There are real concrete rules that were not followed and left up to interpretation.  If the state would have stepped up a lot of this criticism could have been avoided.  There is not any reason for teams to have to wait until the wee hours of the morning to determine if they are going to play an afternoon game that takes 4 hours driving time to get to.  One of the things that baffles me is the decisions were not made earlier in the week as to how to approach the inability to travel.  WSYSA, JUST STEP UP AND DO YOUR JOB!!!!  EVEN IF THAT JOB IS A LITTLE DIFFICULT AT TIMES!!!!

[PrideNJoy]

No one's really whining just to whine.  I think the point is that if you are going to make decisions, then make then based upon being fair for each and every team involved.  I know that even sometimes the fair way is not going to be the best way for some.  The fact that there are so many different things happening, the state has opened this up for discussion.  There are real concrete rules that were not followed and left up to interpretation.  If the state would have stepped up a lot of this criticism could have been avoided.  There is not any reason for teams to have to wait until the wee hours of the morning to determine if they are going to play an afternoon game that takes 4 hours driving time to get to.  One of the things that baffles me is the decisions were not made earlier in the week as to how to approach the inability to travel.  WSYSA, JUST STEP UP AND DO YOUR JOB!!!!  EVEN IF THAT JOB IS A LITTLE DIFFICULT AT TIMES!!!!

I can dig that.  I hope you stay as willing to accept a swift and firm decision even if it's not perfect  

I think I got off on a tangent about the supposed committee influence, professionals needing to run it, or the hidden things like them being afraid to stand up to the PDL.  I think that's malarky btw.  If they get the support on a regional or national level on any stance, they'd probably be saying no to more things pdl.  

I know you didn't reference the above, just random comments from me on the thread in general.  I'd just like to show WYS some support for the job they've done in 07 in general.  Probably the best year I've seen since dd started playing.  

good stuff, thanks!

[Play to Feet]

The Tournament Director was blasted by a number of people for canceling all games the weekend the Governor declared a state of emergency in eastern Washington.  I suspect that she listened to the concerns voiced about her decision, and thus last weekend she tried to find a middle ground.  Now she is getting blasted again.

Also, she (and a bunch of volunteers) worked their a**es off to make sure that there were no coin flips.

Rather than looking backwards, lets look forward.  Areas that need improvement:  1)  clearer rules on travel; 2) clearer rules regarding forfeiture; 3) better planning next year by incorporating a makeup weekend (or two).

It is easy to "throw stones," but given the circumstances, limit yourselves to small stones.

[scottgallagher72]

Well said play to feet!  I agree with you in a lot aspects, but the first decision to cancel all games was the right decision.  That way you put everyone involved in the same situation and there's not too much to grumble about.  All I'm saying is that it has to be one decision for everyone and not allow teams and associations to make their own determinations.  

Also great idea about working to make resolutions, but whose willing to step up and make a decision about them? :?

[Bad Boy]

Baby loves these "deep" threads :twisted:

[sosoccer]

YEH but you are blue.  and with horns!  Need I say more....psycho!!!

[who?]

All this talk about uniformity and speaking w/ a single voice really seems to miss the point.  Why focus so much on centralized decision making when things can be figured out locally.  A number of clubs tried to play games last weekend in order not to double up this weekend - but they were not allowed to for the sake of "unifomity".  Try to get as many games played as possible; if two teams can figure out a way to play the game - let them do it; don't cancel all because one field in some outpost is frozen over and can't be played.

Now, If the goal is to have complete uniformity have all the games settled by coin flips - skip the soccer altogether; weather, bad refereeing, and lucky shots will not play a factor at all.  Uniform stupidity.

As long as it is safe, play all the games you can, and let clubs figure out how to solve the logistics as needed.  The state can step in and solve disagreements when this does not work; but don't start with the assumption that a uniform draconian ruling is best for all simply because it is uniform.   Most of the clubs and volunteers out there are interested in getting the kids to play their games and not in gaming the system when these difficulties arise.

[PrideNJoy]

All this talk about uniformity and speaking w/ a single voice really seems to miss the point.  Why focus so much on centralized decision making when things can be figured out locally.  A number of clubs tried to play games last weekend in order not to double up this weekend - but they were not allowed to for the sake of "unifomity".  Try to get as many games played as possible; if two teams can figure out a way to play the game - let them do it; don't cancel all because one field in some outpost is frozen over and can't be played.

Now, If the goal is to have complete uniformity have all the games settled by coin flips - skip the soccer altogether; weather, bad refereeing, and lucky shots will not play a factor at all.  Uniform stupidity.

As long as it is safe, play all the games you can, and let clubs figure out how to solve the logistics as needed.  The state can step in and solve disagreements when this does not work; but don't start with the assumption that a uniform draconian ruling is best for all simply because it is uniform.   Most of the clubs and volunteers out there are interested in getting the kids to play their games and not in gaming the system when these difficulties arise.

who has the task of scheduling refs?

[Futsal]

Now, If the goal is to have complete uniformity ...

1. All Western Washington teams would play double headers every weekend of league play like many Eastern Washington teams do ... this way the fall league will end before November.

2. Eastern Washington teams will have to turn on the sprinkler systems during the game to simulate the rainy conditions on the west side.

3. If the Tonaskett team gets snowed in and can't play, all games statewide will be cancelled as to not to give anyone an advantage.

4. Everyone will wear the same uniform (might be confusing on the field)

5. All scores will be reported a 1-1 tie.

6. All referees would have the first name Homer.

[EWSoccer64]

Ultimately for an Association to be successful, they need to have professional management. Too many issues to handle effectively as committees of volunteers. While you still want your committees for oversight purposes, professionals should be handling tournaments, events, etc. they at least have expertise and TIME to focus on these issues...

Just like Lake Washington?

Seriously, that was not supposed to be a cheap shot at Lake Washington, it was supposed to be a local example of where things eventually were put right.  The worst examples of what you are proposing are in little league.

Clearly, there are in efficiencies in volunteer run organizations.  But as long as there options (other clubs) then over the long run things will turn out all right. :?

[goldentoe]

I agree as well, but if you take on the position it's your obligation whether paid or not to do what is right.  There are a good number of teams who really got a raw deal based upon the indecision.  I've heard some complain about a coin flip, but at the end of the day this would have made things fair if everyone had to do it.  Having some teams schedule their own games is just opening up the door for foul play.  Consistency with everyone involved is what was needed and it does not take a pay check or professional organization to achieve that.  I think sometimes we just make excuses for WSYSA's  lack leadership.

I agree with you on that.

[goldentoe]

Who? I think playing some of the games is good.  But to support Scott's statement.  Here is hypothetical situation for the way the cups used to handle this is:

February 9 games were Cancelled due to Snow. All those games had to be played on February 17.  The date is scheduled.  Now, if the two teams involved in a game want to play on another day they can agree to do so.

[scottgallagher72]

Who and Futsal, really enjoy the colorful sarcastic commentary, but the bottom line is we are not talking turning youth soccer into a private school format.  Rules were made by US soocer for a reason and when those rules are not followed you create a mess such as we have here.  Let's face it, everyone would love to get all the matches played.  But when playing those matches, affects the integrity of the system I have a problem with it.  We have some teams who have benefited (whethere intentionally or not) from the lack of the leadership by the state.

[lugnut]

The Tournament Director was blasted by a number of people for canceling all games the weekend the Governor declared a state of emergency in eastern Washington.  I suspect that she listened to the concerns voiced about her decision, and thus last weekend she tried to find a middle ground.  Now she is getting blasted again.

Also, she (and a bunch of volunteers) worked their a**es off to make sure that there were no coin flips.

Rather than looking backwards, lets look forward.  Areas that need improvement:  1)  clearer rules on travel; 2) clearer rules regarding forfeiture; 3) better planning next year by incorporating a makeup weekend (or two).

It is easy to "throw stones," but given the circumstances, limit yourselves to small stones.

My two cents?  I don't believe the situation was mis-handled or there was a lack of leadership.  I do believe that the powers that be were not proactive, and let rumors run wild.  The simplest thing to do was to post a big announcement on the WSYSA web site (which teams/clubs could then reference on their sites) that says:

 "Yes, we know the passes were closed and that games can not be played.  Unfortunately, in a number of instances, we can not change the dates of the finals and semi-finals.  We are working with the clubs on finding an equitable solution for all the teams involved.  Coin flips and forfeits are the absolute last option.  We will update this site as soon as we can."

If there is a "weather policy" on travel or what constitutes a forfeit, summarizing that or linking to it would also be a great idea.

The next step is to post a list of those games that still need to be played, and then update those when the clubs report back in about when and where those will happen.  

As long as I am throwing out ideas (or really small stones!), it would be interesting to hear if there was any consideration to using CWU's fields in Ellensburg for some "neutral site" games to reduce travel,   Probably $$$ was the issue, but many of us would be reassured that WSYSA looked at all of the options

[Futsal]

Who and Futsal, really enjoy the colorful sarcastic commentary, but the bottom line is we are not talking turning youth soccer into a private school format.  Rules were made by US soocer for a reason and when those rules are not followed you create a mess such as we have here.  Let's face it, everyone would love to get all the matches played.  But when playing those matches, affects the integrity of the system I have a problem with it.  We have some teams who have benefited (whethere intentionally or not) from the lack of the leadership by the state.

What US Soccer rule was broken?

Given the area WSYSA and this USYSA tournament has to cover, it is impossible to make everything equal.  

Even in the best of circumstances some teams will benefit by travel, field type, weather etc.

[scottgallagher72]

Futsol, let's clarify this.  Rules weren't broken, rather not enforced therefore creating the mess we have.  All I'm saying is that if a particular rule is in the bylaws then use for it's intended purpose.  Don't choose not to and let everyone make their own interpretations of rules.  This is just a fact of life we have rules in everything so that chaious is prevented.

[Futsal]

Futsol, let's clarify this.  Rules weren't broken, rather not enforced therefore creating the mess we have.  All I'm saying is that if a particular rule is in the bylaws then use for it's intended purpose.  Don't choose not to and let everyone make their own interpretations of rules.  This is just a fact of life we have rules in everything so that chaious is prevented.

What specific rule in the bylaws are you saying they did not enforce?