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1

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Referee Question

« on: May 16, 2013, 02:39:04 PM »

Great responses!

Careless = simple foul
Reckless = yellow card
Excessive force = red card 
Serious foul play = is on the ball while the ball is in play
Violent conduct = can be on ball during active play (punch/kick), often during a dead ball situation

Yellow card was the right call.  Some might even go red depending on the situation and force of the tackle.

Flagrant fouls in basketball would equal red cards in soccer.

2

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys HS Thread Spring 2013

« on: May 13, 2013, 08:48:01 AM »

The only high sport where there is true logic in the playoff structure is track and field where time and distance allow you to advance.

In team sports there is a predetermined plan that changes each year.  That plan I believe has to do with field availability and travel.  In a perfect world a seeding plan would be best; but then we would find fault in that (can we say college sports).  To have a plan that contains a combination of seeding by district with a rotation of this district playing that random district (travel equity) create matchups that should occur later in a tournament.

The only argument is that to win the championship you have to beat who is in front you on game day. If the top match up is in round one or in the finals; does it really matter? If you lose you don't get to bring home the big trophy.

3

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys HS Thread Spring 2013

« on: May 09, 2013, 06:59:03 PM »

Mhall,

Great post!  You do a great job of capturing the moment.  Thanks for the comments on the crew.  That is what you get when both teams have something to play for (placement in the state tournament) and a top notch referee crew.

The gentleman in the middle is a friend; one of "we" fellow 40+ referees talked about a week or two ago.  While I was getting ready for the Puyallup vs Mt Rainier game; I dropped him an email to wish him luck; telling him to make us proud.  By your report he indeed made us referees proud.

He does a good job and is on the up swing as he will start working college games (community college and small 4 year schools) next year.

Thanks for being positive and negative when speaking of referees.  Because of that your words are true.

4

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys HS Thread Spring 2013

« on: May 02, 2013, 12:39:48 AM »

The referees at this stage in of the high school season would be from a small pool of the upper echelon of the group.

You should expect referees who are on their way to the high school finals, those who just missed the cut or some who could make the cut but whose schedule won't allow them to make the weekend commitment.

You should get some one who should be able to handle a high school match. 

Remember the players as well as the referee play a role in keeping the game under control.

5

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: WA State Cup & Oregon State Cup Roster Rules

« on: April 29, 2013, 03:00:56 PM »

If you talking about the championship series?  The answer is no.

You can only be registered to one team within a state.  Which means that you can only be registered one team across state lines.

Like any local youth tournament you can't be on two teams at the same time. Remember it is one national event.

6

MLS- Sounders/Timbers * World Soccer -R- / Re: Correct PK non-call, or...? (video)

« on: April 26, 2013, 11:26:41 PM »

Read the response and the body language of the players in both playes?  The player who falls to the ground in the first play and the player who tripped the attacker in the second play?

In both playes neither player seemed to dispute the call.  Players usually argue when they think they are right.  They usually dont argue when they know they have done something wrong.

How many times have you seen a coach go ballistic about a call on the field and then later find out from the player involved in a play that they indeed had commit a foul or were the last to touch a ball?

The players first reaction is always an honest one.

7

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: Officiating/Referee's in USA

« on: April 25, 2013, 03:44:20 PM »

Premier and High School were once the pinnacle, the games some of us were aiming for.  That is still the goal for the vast majority of referees.  Now those games are a way to give back to the game.  Checking various referee sites to make sure that as many games get covered as possible.

40+ year old referees; I pat you all on the back.  You take a lot of grief for being brave enough to work game when you are scrutinized by some who have no clue about game they are watching.  For those who do know what they are watching; we listen to you because your complaints are legitimate.  You are willing to bust your butt, even thought you will be blamed when something goes wrong and it is not your (our) fault.  Players usually are the reason for games being won or loss.

Without you signing up for games we would now be writing about the number of games with open referee slots on them. 

40+ year old referee, keep going out there.  You make it fun for a guy like me.  The kindness, the humility every time I work with you that you give to me cannot be explained.

I would rather have a 40+ referee (ar) on my game or no referee at all. 

Heck otherwise you'll get a guy like me.  You might feel like the mother from Yelm.  She was not shy about telling me that I didn't have a clue.

8

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: Officiating/Referee's in USA

« on: April 23, 2013, 02:30:50 PM »

High School and College Referee being compared to European Referees and how they control the game.

In stage we would agree that there is a progression for referee working games by age, u5 all the way to the professional level. correct?  Can we agree that along that path there are different levels of play within age groups?  We then sprinkle school ball in the mix along the way. 

The common thread is the thought that players get better along the way.  The same thought goes for referees.  The higher the level of the game the higher level of the referee.

But we want to compare those who referee high school and college games in America to referees you see on television in Europe?  Yes professional referees in our country give back by working high school and college games.  I would believe the same is done overseas.  But to compare a top domestic league (some of which wear the FIFA badge) that you see on television isn't quite fair.

Why not compare referees who work u15 games in America with referee who work the same level in Europe?  Now that would provide sure true data.

But I'm sure you would find similar issues at the lower levels with referees in Europe as you have here.  Do a google search and you'll find that England is struggling with referee numbers for their youth games.  The issues and concerns are the same, just in a different country.

9

MLS- Sounders/Timbers * World Soccer -R- / Re: USA Men's U-17

« on: April 22, 2013, 06:01:17 PM »

I will not always.  But do you agree that referee understand advantage at a higher rate than the fan watching?

Here is an example of what I experienced on a college game:

From the left wing 30-35 yards up the touch line the ball is crossed into the penalty area.  Attacking midfielder make a play on the ball along with a defender. There is contact between the two causing the crowd to erupt for a foul to be called.  The ball makes its way to a fellow attacking player who puts the ball into the net for a 1-0 lead.

A referee doesn't yell playon in the area so not to startle players from either team; just silently wait to see how the play will end prior to making a critical decision in an important area of the field (a penalty kick decision).

Now if I had reacted like the crowd had wanted me to I would have blown my whistle and called a foul (penalty kick).  Dissallowing the goal from active play.  With no guarantee that the resulting penalty Kick would be successful or not.

Imagine this?  The penalty kick is missed?  Guess what we would be talking about then?  The referee should have applied advantage instead of calling a foul.

We are not perfect nor do we get it right 100% of the time.  But there is a reason we are in the roles that we are in: players, coaches, administrators, referees etc.....

10

MLS- Sounders/Timbers * World Soccer -R- / Re: USA Men's U-17

« on: April 21, 2013, 08:39:32 PM »

About advantage....

Advantage is debated internally by a referee when a player with the ball is fouled.  The decision on whether to apply advantage is based on if the player who was fouled team had the advantage by not calling the foul.

Is the player who is being fouled can play through the contact and continue a promising attack.

Does the team of fouled player (does the ball go to a teammate who can continue a promising attack) has an advantage by not calling a foul.

If we are talking about "hacking each opponents" those fouls should be called at any level.

There is a difference discussion about how to come back an issue a yellow card after applying advantage.

This is an acquired skill.  It takes time to learn how to do this.  The higher the referee grade, the better the skill at doing it.

11

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: Officiating/Referee's in USA

« on: April 19, 2013, 03:15:38 PM »

That is a interesting thought about average age of officials.

For soccer once you get past 45 you can no longer be a FIFA referee and or referee in the world cup.

I believe if we were to look at the average age of major college and professional football and basketball officials the average age would be above 45 years old.  Heck the principle of the middle school my kids attended is a PAC 12 referee; and he has me by at least 7 years.

If were we're to go to baseball the average age of officials increases by the level. 

It would be safe to say that soccer referee are the most fit at the highest level.

Those who work your youth games are youngster just starting out and or mature members of society who have found a way "to give back to the game".  But yet they get the fat and out of shape comments.  Hey at least they are out there trying.

You are right the ideal new referee would be in their mid twenties.  A former player who has knowledge of the game.  Which means that they are still fit.  But wait that potential referee is still playing in the amateur adult leagues complaining about the referees working their games.

If you have been watching the concacaf U17 World Cup Qualifers, you seen my friend Juan Guzman, our most recent Anointed FIFA Referee.  He fits your profile; a top notch referee in the world and is under 30!  My other friend Armando Villarreal is not far behind.  Check out the other sports in our country? 

Washington currently has four working in MLS and another dozen working who may get opportunities working MLS Reserve matches and NWSL matches.  There are another 50-60 who may get a shot at USL U23 and W-League games.

Somebody has to referee your kids games.  Depending on the level of your game you are going to get the appropriate level referee.  If that if Boys U14 RCL 2nd division you might not get one of those I just listed.  When you do (you have know idea who they are) they are giving back to the game by working your game and mentoring the inexperience or less dedicated referee who normally work your games get better.

12

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: Officiating/Referee's in USA

« on: April 19, 2013, 01:18:37 AM »

One doesn't have to be a referee to have to talk, but........

I wonder of the American football, baseball or basketball sites like this one has similar questions asked about refereeing?

NFL has 1696 players and at least 112 game day official per 16 games per week.

NBA has 360 players and at least 45 game night officials for 15 games on a given night.

MLB has 750 players and at least 60 game night umpires for 15 games per night.

MLS has 500 players with 75 (20 referee) (45 AR'S) and (4th Officials)

Do they they take on the same hits like soccer referees?

You can expand the numbers to colleges (multiple levels), high school and youth with respect to players and officials.

It takes time to get better and make it to the top of any field.  What do you really expect from an official at your child's game?

As players and officials climb the ladder the cream rises to the top.  We would naturally expect that.  But every now in then we get the question about the quality of the referee with respect to the level of the game.  Hopefully my example shows the the ratio for soccer at our highest level is comparable to other sports.

I have no problem if you say I(we) suck if I(we) have a bad game.  But to say we are not up to the level of game itself is not fair.  It is known in the soccer world that our AR's are ahead of the curve with the rest of the world.

That is like saying that American Football referees in Africa are not up to the level of the game.  Wait!  I don't think they play American Football in Africa.  And if they do it is not at the level that we play it here in America.

Referees get better as they gain experience.  I believe that is a common occurrence in life.  I will say this on behalf of the soccer referee who at times take some hits on forums like this one.  If you look deep into the activity of your professional official across sports listed above.  I would make a hefty wager that you would find a very high percentage of your professional soccer referees working your youth, high school matches.

Believe me sometime the people in the stands have know idea who is working their match.

13

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Washington Cup vs WYS Cup referees

« on: April 15, 2013, 03:08:33 PM »

Volume, Volume, Volume.

It is the number of game vs the number of available referees.  Remember this a time of the year that traditionally is a slow time.  With the rise in youth soccer; the moving of the youth season (WYS-high school girls) the growth of US Club has created a shift of the number of referees needed at this time of the year.

That combine with the fact that many referees do other things besides referee?

14

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Age requirement for referee?

« on: April 13, 2013, 09:16:16 AM »

As for the goal being called back; age was not the determining factor.  The experience of the referee is.  A 30 year old brand new referee (less than 50 games worked) usually will blow that call the first time they see it.

If fact the best learning experiences come from making mistakes.

14 year old working a varsity game after playing in the JV game?  Lets see?  One AR doesn't show, people scramble for able body.  14 year old is only registered referee available.  Coaches agree to have him fill the void (remember a major conflict of interest here).  Unfortunately he is involved in a controversial call.  And now we ask why was he on the game?

If he was not we would ask why was the crew not full.

The minimum age is widely considered 14.  The normal practice is for a referee to be two years older than the age group (youth games).  High school age referees can run lines.  Assignors will not assign them to the leagues that their schools play in.   When my son played for Mt. Tahoma I could not work Narrows league games for 4 years.

Hope this helps?

15

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: Is a whistle neccesary??

« on: April 03, 2013, 02:57:29 PM »

Based on the law, 10 yards must be respected. 

A whistle is only need in case of a ceremonial kick.  Referee clearly indicates that a whistle is needed (depending on the type of foul and the activity that the foul creates) or when the attacking team askes the referee to make sure the defense is respecting 10 yards.  Then the attacking team cannot take the kick until the whistle is blown (if taken prior to the whistle, a yellow card can be given for unsporting behavior).

There is nowhere in the law that gives the defending team the right to asking the referee to wait for the whistle so they can set up their defense.  They often ask; but are always ignored.

The attacking team can always take a quick free kick at their own risk.  Then a referee must decide if any contact with the ball by the defending team was the result of the attacking or the defending team?

No whistle is needed here!

16

General Soccer Talk * College Talk * HS Soccer Talk * Club/State Issues -R- / Re: Poster's Soccer Backgrounds?

« on: April 03, 2013, 02:42:01 PM »

Player = high school
Coach = rec, select and premier.
Referee = youth, high school, college and professional
General knowledge = 13 years as a local news sports producer
*been involved in youth soccer in Washington since August 1986

What qualifies me share my thoughts on this site?

I have a passion for the game and I love to interact with others that share the same passion.  It is always interesting to read what others have to say.  Whether I agree with them or not.  So post away my friend.  I for one am interested in what you have to say.

17

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys HS Thread Spring 2013

« on: March 30, 2013, 08:59:27 AM »

How legit are the rankings when one team on the list has played 15 games while one team hasn't played any yet?

How legit are the rankings when one team has lost twice (I hope both defeats were to teams ranked higher on the list)?

With all due respect (there is a general knowledge where good soccer is played around the country); I didn't realize that Wyoming was on that list.

However it is nice to see that the east coast bias is not affecting high school soccer!

18

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 15, 2013, 07:06:22 PM »

We are on the same page. 

I appreciate the thanks.  But I put this scrutiny upon myself.  I enjoy the conversation.

I hope you understand what my theme really is?

I want all referees to strive to get better.  I don't want any of them to only do it for the money.  I believe when we first start out that is a key factor.  But with earning money there comes the responsibility to truly educate oneself about what your are involved in.  Heck if I don't preform up to snuff; I understand that it reflects on all referees who follow on the next game, the next field or the next day.

I have no sympathy for any referee who is not trying to improve themself.

I just want the others to take that same responsibility.  Maybe not by performance (I sucked as a player but can coach with any RCL coach out there).  But we all can share the responsibility with respect to the knowledge of the game (understanding the LOTG) and respect for ones opponent.

I hope that clears up where I'm coming from.

19

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 15, 2013, 05:18:04 PM »

My view is not skewed at all.  As I have never missed a high school season since I started working them.  Even a few high school finals along the way.

I am not saying that he referee don't play a role in this subject.  We are a piece of the problem; not the whole problem and not even the most important part of the problem.

Yes referees need to do a better job of keep all soccer games safe.  Some are better than others.  Those participating in the game need to do a better job of doing so on a safe manner.

Is that too much to ask?

20

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 15, 2013, 02:15:23 PM »

Redkard = Newbie?

That is not the case.  Like been around long enough to have played and referred in the league.

I will say there is a wide variety of the level of players, coached and referees.  We all have our roles within the game and responsibility to the game.  The one common thread is to blame someone other than oneself when something doesn't go your way.

I've been to the meetings.
I have my interpretation of what was said and how to move forward as a referee.
It is unfortunate when a player gets hurt.  Let me know when you see a referee foul a player and or cause an injury.  Can we do a better job of controlling some games?  Yes!  However if players would not do silly things there would be nothing for referees to control.

Some referees do a better job of controlling games than others.  It is their job to improve the skill of other referees to do better.  Some are working hard at that as we speak.

For every coach or parent of a hot head on any team (every on out there know they exist and know who they are on the team you are involved with) guide them to play hard and play smart without crossing that line.

Redkard is not a newbie ?

21

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 14, 2013, 09:58:56 AM »

The meeting that you are referring to are designed to have coaches attend as well (at least that is the way they are designed).  Whether coached attend it is up to them.  Yes they go over he Redcard issue.  It is. Recent phenomenon; due to a rash of redcards issued over a few years.  Yes he threat of teams not being eligible for the playoff is there.  How often has it been implemented? You can count them on one hand.  The threat has worked.

Do referees know the ramifications of the types of redcards we are talking about.  But it is a player committing a Redcard infraction not the referee.  We are reacting to what we see.  The responsibility belongs to player and coach in my opinion.

If a player is involved in a serious foul play infraction or violent conduct; do you really want me to sit and debate with myself that this player or school might not get to go to the playoffs? 

If you promise not to talk about me in a bad way on this site I will issue a yellow card.  Otherwise I'm not worried about what happens off the field (administration decision on what happens to the team).  I can on worry about what happens on the field.

I a red card is warranted, a red card will be given.

22

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 13, 2013, 02:52:40 PM »

The officials are for the most part from the same pool of referees.  There are only a few who only referee high school and not referee USSF games.
 
It is not a referees job to worry about what the potential suspension might be for a player.  That is for the league administrators to deal with.  A referee should only worrying about managing the match they are working at that moment.  Making sure the laws/rules are followed and maintaining safety on the field.

23

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Offside? Clearly. Infraction????

« on: March 13, 2013, 02:47:36 PM »

I don't know if I should be surprised or not that nothing has been said today about the Tigres player who received the redcard (second yellow) near the end of the first half?  And it's role in who won the game.  Would Seattle have won the game if playing 11 vs 11 for a full 90 minutes.

Was it the right call?
Was it fair?
Was it a soft call?
Was it the right call?

Or do people not care because the team that they were cheering for benefited from the call?

24

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 12, 2013, 05:29:18 PM »

Yes; evaluate, evaluate, evaluate the good and the bad.

Remember referees cause injuries; players do.  I do understand the topic though.

But then is ask this question.  If an injury happens on the first hard tackle/foul of a game; is it the referee's fault?

If a player uses foul language is it the referee's fault?

If a player spits at or on someone is it the referee's fault?

Yes referees need to get better at managing the games they work.  However is players didn't do questionable thing during games then there would be nothing to manage.

As for the DOC comment.  All out there have players or teams in their club who display the same behavior that is described earlier.  If a DOC is not going to curb the behavior when one of their teams is dishing it out; how strong will words be when one of their teams is victimized by such behavior?

Evaluate, evaluate, evaluate!

25

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: High School Soccer Rant!

« on: March 12, 2013, 02:57:38 PM »

Mhall,

You stole my thunder!

Physicality!  Size, weight and strength does matter.  Up until high school players played within their age groups.  In high school you have a four year age gap; which is accompanied by that gap in size and or strength.

A six foot freshman is not as strong as a six foo senior.  Even when they weigh the same here could be a difference in strength.  I'm sure some of have used the term "old man strength"?

I saw it first hand while cutting yards with my grandfather as a child.

Hope your son recovers and gets back on the field soon!

26

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Offside? Clearly. Infraction????

« on: March 12, 2013, 02:41:21 PM »

I will let you debate if the call was right or wrong.  But I will give a different perspective.

After watching the replay (finally) I see three people who I assume that we are referring to.

One player who I believe all are talking about because he was the only player who was in an offside position when the ball was played.  Here is what no one has addressed.  Not only did he not play the ball; he could not play the ball because it was too far over his head.  That more than anything is the reason why he is not considered involved in the play. 

To be passive he would have to avoid playing the ball (ball on ground). Which would make referee and assistant have to determine if he obscured the view of the goal keeper.  In this case he ball was played high in the air; thus the keeper is not even looking at the player in question.

The player who shot the ball initially was on side when the cross was played.  The player who put in the rebound was on side when that shot was taken.

Based on that and you were that AR; would your flag to up or stay down.

27

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys U17.......Top 20

« on: February 11, 2013, 03:39:48 PM »

It appears that the referee crews performed at the level of the games they were assigned to.

It is nice to hear......

28

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Kids // Money

« on: February 11, 2013, 03:36:26 PM »

Others are making money off of you and your child's dream of playing at a higher level.  To earn an athletic scholarship.

Do the research, this is not basketball or football.  There the scholarships match the players on the roster for the most part.  In soccer (correct me if I'm wrong) 20-25 on a roster with 10-12 scholarships.  You do the math?  Still a lot more money to spend for a year of college. 

But wait; that money has already been spent trying to get to college in the first place (buy way of the soccer field).  I'm not just blowing smoke here.  I (we) fell into the same trap.  Played at the highest level, ended up still having to apply for financial aid to a community college.

Youth sports across the board is a money game for all involved, regardless of the sport.  We just need to be wise on how we spend that money.  We also need to be realistice of our childrens athletic ability.  More important, we need to know when to stop draining the pocket book on a pipe dream.  Thus returning to the reason why we signed little Susie or Johnny to play in the first place.
Soccer is a wonderful activity to get some excersise and to interact with other members of our communities.

The play for the love of the game.  Not to play the game because it might give to you in the future.

29

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys U17.......Top 20

« on: February 10, 2013, 02:15:43 AM »

This is what you get tomorrow in the middle of the eight final matches:

MLS AR
National referee
National referee (most recent women's national team game on Portland)
Pending national referee
Pending national assistant referee
2014 national candidate
State 2
State 2

30

WPS - CrazyParents U11-UCrazy -PG13- / Re: Boys U17.......Top 20

« on: February 04, 2013, 04:08:47 PM »

It will be fun to see this group this upcoming weekend.  Maybe I will see you as a Referee Mentor?  Maybe I can read about my performance if I'm lucky to work this age group as a referee?

Always remember at the stage of the tournament; quarterfinals (this past weekend) you are going to get a higher quality of referee working your matches.  I some cases grade 6 grade 5 referees.  referees who may have been to the Far West Regionals a number of times?  May have even been to Nationals?  May have worked the PDL (Kitsap Pumas, Sounders U23's, ect...)?  May have even worked NCAA Div 1 and Div 2 games?

I'm just saying?

Why when a game gets a little testy, it has to be someone's fault other than the players themselves?

I researched the games that have been mentioned.  All had top notch people on their games.  Referees who have been there and done it.  Who are still coming back and working games not because they need the games.  They come back and work the games because some of these games need a certain type of referee.

Let us hope that next weekend the quality of the playing of the game and the officiating of the game match one another.

Let me just say that next week you will be getting the best of what Washington has to offer as far as referee for all four age groups!