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Author Topic: At what age move to premier level?  (Read 3458 times)

marindog

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At what age move to premier level?
« on: January 30, 2017, 10:13:08 AM »

My U11 daughter (U10 playing year up) plays on a Silver level team. Is it a smart move to join the nearby Premier level team (if she can make it)? Or is that rushing things?

Thanks!
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Unlucky1

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2017, 10:22:31 AM »

Your daughter is in the "Golden Years" of development.  Research the coach and follow the coach who you think will get the best out of her and will still make the game fun!  Such an important time to work on the technical part of the game.  Juggling, first touch and receiving.

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ForTheKids

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2017, 10:36:59 AM »

My U11 daughter (U10 playing year up) plays on a Silver level team. Is it a smart move to join the nearby Premier level team (if she can make it)? Or is that rushing things?

Thanks!

It comes down to what you and your DD want from the game.  If the goal is to grow as a player to become the strongest one can be, then the years up to U14 should be VERY heavy on getting the foundation mastered.  Often that means premier or elite soccer may or may not be relevant.  If you do premier or elite at that level, you are going to likely have to hit outside training to get the rest (personal experience).

That said, if the goal is to get identified for regional or national programs, if you are not in a premier or elite program at U11/U12, it becomes very hard.  Girls are identified early and those years, like it or not, if you are not in the right place to be seen and advocated, the chances later are much harder.

IMO, most premier and elite girls soccer does not really grow the player much. Its what they do outside of club training that defines them.  Many that go in early and do not still own their development tend to have issues at U16+ when the speed of play and physicality of the game grows and their foundation was never mastered.

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Tothemax

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 11:16:09 AM »

Completely agree with what For The Kids said.
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 03:03:32 PM »

The last thing you should do is take advice from buffoons (like FTK or me). Seriously, talk with your kid about what your goals are and what role you want soccer to play in your lives. All in for soccer makes sense for very few people.

The normal path is that a player's options decline with age until none of the options are acceptable. The player stops playing. While it's true that a player should develop touch early, it's also true that touch limits a very small percentage of players. Soccer is multifaceted - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.  I think the idea that you should jump to Premier to develop better or because it is hard to jump later is dubious. In reality the reason to jump earlier is mostly social - to try to position yourself to be on a viable team that lasts. Premier teams have a better chance of surviving, though with wild coach and player changes, they often don't feel like the same team.
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raddad

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 04:17:47 PM »

FTK is 100% correct. The issue is that premier soccer takes up so much time with games and game-oriented, one-dimensional practice that development tends to stagnate. However, there is the idea that it becomes harder to join a premier team as players get older and it's true premier is important for college placement and national team identification in our current system. It's a little of a catch 22.

Completely agree with what For The Kids said.
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 06:42:39 PM »

FTK is 100% correct. The issue is that premier soccer takes up so much time with games and game-oriented, one-dimensional practice that development tends to stagnate. However, there is the idea that it becomes harder to join a premier team as players get older and it's true premier is important for college placement and national team identification in our current system. It's a little of a catch 22.

Completely agree with what For The Kids said.

Don't believe the whiners. The reason that the vast majority of players don't become Messi is because they lack the innate talent. These days almost every American youth player who starts the game early reaches their ball control peak. It's just that not everybody's peak is the same. Nobody wants to admit that - so we come up with this creative blaming myth where "the system" cheated my wonderful kid out of $$$ and stardom. It's really sad, IMO.

The three legs of soccer are ball control, speed, and aggression. Your own kid's potential is reached at the point where other people's kids have more of those things than yours does. You can make soccer fun, productive and worthwhile wherever that limit happens to be. That is what you should be looking to do.
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ForTheKids

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 07:36:10 PM »

TP has no kids in the game, does not coach and has not played or administered soccer.



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raddad

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 10:28:34 PM »

sure I agree that not everyone's coordination, and therefore their ability to control the ball, is not the same. however ball control is not stressed in youth development training in the vast majority of clubs.. because we americans like fun, competition, and games and dribbling and control drills are not all that fun. american players by and large are very far from their peak in this. first touch and ball control is nothing short of awful compared to other countries in which ball control is a key part of development and training from early ages.

this is not unique to soccer by the way. the same goes for basketball - dribbing and fundamentals, lacrosse - stick work, hockey - puck control, etc. we lag behind other countries because our youth sports systems are based on clubs, games, and winning and not development of key sport-specific skills.

in sports where our systems do have a focus on training these skills, america dominates because of our superior atheticism and aggression. swimming, gymnastics, ice skating are examples.

the absolute saddest part of it all is that our club soccer system takes all the really athletic and aggressive kids from the most early ages and ends up trapping them in this development system where they never able to come close to their potential in soccer technique.

almost every American youth player who starts the game early reaches their ball control peak. It's just that not everybody's peak is the same.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 10:38:55 PM by raddad »
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ouch

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 11:35:34 PM »

Marindog- can you expand on "rushing things"?  What are your specific concerns? I don't think it is an age issue- is your daughter interested in playing year around structured soccer?
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 11:49:54 PM »

sure I agree that not everyone's coordination, and therefore their ability to control the ball, is not the same. however ball control is not stressed in youth development training in the vast majority of clubs.. because we americans like fun, competition, and games and dribbling and control drills are not all that fun. american players by and large are very far from their peak in this. first touch and ball control is nothing short of awful compared to other countries in which ball control is a key part of development and training from early ages.

this is not unique to soccer by the way. the same goes for basketball - dribbing and fundamentals, lacrosse - stick work, hockey - puck control, etc. we lag behind other countries because our youth sports systems are based on clubs, games, and winning and not development of key sport-specific skills.

in sports where our systems do have a focus on training these skills, america dominates because of our superior atheticism and aggression. swimming, gymnastics, ice skating are examples.

the absolute saddest part of it all is that our club soccer system takes all the really athletic and aggressive kids from the most early ages and ends up trapping them in this development system where they never able to come close to their potential in soccer technique.

almost every American youth player who starts the game early reaches their ball control peak. It's just that not everybody's peak is the same.
This is complete nonsense. The American masses have ball control that is just as good (or maybe bad) as the masses of other countries. Your judgement comes from looking at the elites. European elites who are playing what is by far their country's dominant sport vs American elites who are playing a sport that is, for males, 2nd or 3rd tier in the sports hierarchy. You are comparing completely different populations.

An American soccer player who starts at age 5 and stays with the sport until 15 will have come very close to having achieved his ball-control potential. 99% of American players are limited by their lack of speed, aggression or that their realized potential just wasn't good enough to play at some level - not that their potential was not reached. People are not as stupid as you think. They don't endlessly do drills because they understand that the marginal return on doing them is very low. How? Because they are in the game and playing it.

The only systematic factor working against the US player is that we traditionally get a later start because soccer's penetration is less deep here. So Argentina and Brazil 5-year-olds pushed by their Dads do give them some advantage. But that is irrelevant to a U10 player. That ship has already sailed.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 12:40:44 AM by tripleplay »
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 12:11:09 AM »


Whether it is hitting a golf ball into a hole, throwing a basketball through a hoop, playing table tennis, or running a mile, there are individual limits that vary dramatically.

Studies show, for example, that a sizeable percentage of the population get ZERO fitness benefit from training.

Go to a basketball court and start shooting free throws every day. Your percentage will improve for awhile. Then it will not improve. And your best percentage will not be even close to the same as someone else's.

Soccer is no different. That High Schooler with a terrible touch has been coached for a dozen years to improve it. They have done hour upon hour of drills designed specifically to improve it. But the result they obtain is inferior to what a different person had at age 8 with 1% of the training.

That's just the way it is.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 12:21:06 AM by tripleplay »
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raddad

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 08:53:35 AM »

Good old tp, can always be counted on to blow up a thread with his nonsense.
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bebu

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 09:21:32 AM »

My U11 daughter (U10 playing year up) plays on a Silver level team. Is it a smart move to join the nearby Premier level team (if she can make it)? Or is that rushing things?

Thanks!
It is common for relative strong kids to play up at younger ages, but that's not a good indication of success at higher level.
You should start by identifying the attributes that make your daughter stand out in her current team. You and your daughter should also go and watch a few games at Premier level to see if your daughter's strengths would still apply. Ask your daughter if she's ready for a tougher challenge and what does she need the most to grow. If you feel she's ready, you should scout for a coach/club that is best suited for your daughter. As an example, if your daughter is good technically but is not Big/Fast/Strong, you should not look for a coach who prefers big kids.
It's good to play on a team where she is not the strongest (time to move to tougher challenge) but also your kid should not be in the bottom 3 according to the coach (time to step down a level).
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 11:58:47 AM »

Good old tp, can always be counted on to blow up a thread with his nonsense.
It is very common for parents of young soccer player to worry about whether they are doing the right thing to maximize their child's success. (Been there) This blog is the perfect example - endless threads over irrelevant minutiae about what size field to play on. LOL And of course there are all kinds of businesses preying on that parental worry.

In reality, the perfect "development environment" is a 1% type of factor. The 99% is where parental focus should be. Having fun, appropriate time commitment, cost, length of commute, making friends ...  Getting those right are what keep people in the game in a positive way, with development being a secondary side effect of that.

To tell the truth, at U10 in my part of the state there are a number of good choices so even the dumbest parents don't go too far wrong. But at HS, not so. Wrong choices produce ex-soccer players.

But in terms of concrete advice, definitely try out for a Premier club or two. You'll get a pretty good feeling of where you'll fit in and whether it is for you.
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marindog

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2017, 04:27:11 PM »

Marindog- can you expand on "rushing things"?  What are your specific concerns? I don't think it is an age issue- is your daughter interested in playing year around structured soccer?

By rushing things I mean she loves her team and coach so I don't want to unnecessarily unplug her from that. At same time she rises above her teammates on control, aggression and I guess you'd call it intuition. I'm being told by others to move her up and out of this club because she needs better competition in practice and game. She started playing Futsal in winter and plays spring league and all that so there's no shortage of interest from her. I want to see where her potential is but without squelching her love of the game or missing foundational skills.
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2017, 05:10:07 PM »

Not rushing. If anything a little on the late side.
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raddad

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2017, 07:50:03 PM »

others on prior threads have made the point (which I agree with) that during the prime development years before U13, the quality of the coaching is paramount. there are many non-premier clubs with excellent coaches who can develop players, so the premier label is really not necessary. you could consider some individual coaching or adding coerver if she needs a greater challenge as you mentioned she is already playing up.

 
By rushing things I mean she loves her team and coach so I don't want to unnecessarily unplug her from that. At same time she rises above her teammates on control, aggression and I guess you'd call it intuition. I'm being told by others to move her up and out of this club because she needs better competition in practice and game. She started playing Futsal in winter and plays spring league and all that so there's no shortage of interest from her. I want to see where her potential is but without squelching her love of the game or missing foundational skills.
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ouch

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Re: At what age move to premier level
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2017, 11:33:10 PM »

Not rushing.

Agree- you aren't rushing.  If you have the financial means and don't mind some travel premier can be an excellent option.  I don't have as much experience as many on this board, but our two years of premier soccer have been a lot of fun.  You will meet great families and great children- but do understand that premier soccer pulls in an interesting spectrum of players and families.  At the highest levels it is intense and your daughter represents competition, so don't be surprised if Mr and Mrs Johnson aren't too excited to see you.

Choose a club near home and ask if your daughter can join a few trainings before tryouts.  Go to a game or two, the rcl just started league play.  Be sure to say hi to the coach while you are at the game and make sure he sees your daughter practice some wall balls or individual drills on her own.  Like others have said, Premier coaching is excellent, but it is up to the individual to develop and express their talent.  Coaches don't spend a ton of time on individual development. Much of practice is dedicated to tactical.  Attending a few trainings will give the coaches an opportunity to get a feel where she'd fit in, give you an opportunity to meet the coaches, and determine if the premier experience is a good fit for your daughter (many families have never been to a premier game, be sure to sit through the entirety of a couple). 

Also as mentioned, you want your daughter to be in the top 3/4 of the team.  If she is in the bottom quartile, you might consider a level down.   Understand the difference between the "A" team and the "D" team.  The dynamics can be worlds apart.

Finally, remember it is a substantial commitment for the family.  But at no level is your daughter responsible for that commitment.  She's too young and doesn't know what to expect.  You can't expect her to work harder because of your sacrifice.  It doesn't work that way. It's a gift you are offering- but she may want to give it back, and there aren't typically refunds.  Premier soccer is expensive and time consuming.  Think $3k-$5k minimum per year, let alone the time commitment.  So be sure to not burden your daughter with the responsibility of that expense.  You are making that choice on your own- as you say- you "want to see where her potential is".  Take it easy on the expectations and keep it fun.  She will find tons of pressure elsewhere on the team. 

With all that said, I do recommend it.  It's fun as hell!
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ForTheKids

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Re: At what age move to premier level
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 08:25:26 AM »

Finally, remember it is a substantial commitment for the family. 

This is perhaps the biggest cost to playing premier or elite. Not the money.  The trade-off of family time. Not just DD who is playing soccer but any of the other kids that need to align to that schedule.  Those two tiers of play (and it is going to grow dramatically with what seems like all the top 6 girls programs now doing elite, not just premier) demands giving up a very very large amount of family time for soccer.  Is it worth it?  I guess it depends why one is playing the game.  Sure you get time with DK but it revolves around soccer. Maybe that's ok.  But I tend to think premier / elite soccer with the time commit is too much to trade off on a young family.  Maybe at U14 it is not but at U11, yep, it is.  But like mentioned earlier, identification is early for the girls so tradeoffs must be made.
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 10:03:35 AM »

Not rushing.

Agree- you aren't rushing.  If you have the financial means and don't mind some travel premier can be an excellent option.  I don't have as much experience as many on this board, but our two years of premier soccer have been a lot of fun.
That is the key word. Do what is most fun for her. Don't use her activities as a way for you to make a statement about youth soccer, which seems to be the hidden agenda in many of the answers in this thread. Look for fun now and plan for future fun. You won't get it all the time - over the long haul there will be losses, injuries, coaches you don't like, riding the bench, getting cut etc. But, done right, it should be fun on balance for a long time.
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EagleclawFootballAcademy

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2017, 09:43:08 PM »

The three legs of soccer are ball control, speed, and aggression.[/quote]

Disagree vehemently with this comment, which is emblematic of the problems affecting  youth soccer in the U.S.  Speed of thought, decision-making or game intelligence is the chief driver of success in the game.   In the U.S., too much attention is paid to speed and aggression, when technical skill and speedy, smart decision making are vastly more  crucial to player development.  And we continue to wonder why we cannot develop world class players....



« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 10:55:31 PM by EagleclawFootballAcademy »
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ForTheKids

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2017, 10:52:50 PM »

The three legs of soccer are ball control, speed, and aggression.

Disagree vehemently with this comment, which is emblematic of the problems affecting  youth soccer in the U.S.  Speed of thought, decision-making or game intelligence is the chief driver of success in the game.   In the U.S., too much attention is paid to speed and aggression, when technical skill and speedy, smart decision making are vastly more  to player development.  And we continue to wonder why we cannot develop world class players....
[/quote]

So true.  The most difficult thing to measure is a youth player's soccer IQ.  In most cases because the assessor is not qualified to measure this critical factor.  Its horribly difficult particularly in the US because we are caught in this feedback loop.  Players get ID'd based on things like speed, aggression.  Then fast forward 20 years and those same players are the ones doing the assessing.  Its broken to the point of unfixable without acknowledging the evaluators are not even qualified in many cases to assess cause they have been part of the problem and not the solution.  It explains why progress is so slow.
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2017, 05:55:16 PM »

The three legs of soccer are ball control, speed, and aggression.

Disagree vehemently with this comment, which is emblematic of the problems affecting  youth soccer in the U.S.  Speed of thought, decision-making or game intelligence is the chief driver of success in the game.   In the U.S., too much attention is paid to speed and aggression, when technical skill and speedy, smart decision making are vastly more  to player development.  And we continue to wonder why we cannot develop world class players....
[/quote]

Aggression (aka ability to get to the ball) is dependent on speed of thought and ability to read the game. It can be identified, and Americans identify just as well as anyone, but it can't be taught.

Unfortunately it is a characteristic that is extremely valuable in the major American sports, so soccer gets the crumbs.
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2017, 05:59:46 PM »


So true.  The most difficult thing to measure is a youth player's soccer IQ.  In most cases because the assessor is not qualified to measure this critical factor.  Its horribly difficult particularly in the US because we are caught in this feedback loop.  Players get ID'd based on things like speed, aggression.  Then fast forward 20 years and those same players are the ones doing the assessing.  Its broken to the point of unfixable without acknowledging the evaluators are not even qualified in many cases to assess cause they have been part of the problem and not the solution.  It explains why progress is so slow.
Soccer IQ = aggression. It's not at all hard to evaluate. But it's a limited resource.
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bebu

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2017, 09:01:15 PM »

Quote
Aggression (aka ability to get to the ball)
Quote
Soccer IQ = aggression.
You are confused on so many levels it's hard to "fix".
Andrea Pirlo has extremely high soccer IQ. He is not at all "aggressive" by any mean.
Please see this link http://blog.3four3.com/2010/01/20/fundamental-guide-to-soccer-iq for an idea of soccer IQ.
For aggression, please see this link
 
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rustysurf83

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2017, 09:53:22 PM »

That video is not "aggression," it is cheap and dirty play...
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tripleplay

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2017, 10:11:04 PM »

"Soccer IQ" is a meaningless PC term (which obviously has little to no connection to conventional definitions of intelligence of course) and I have zero interest in playing semantic games with brainless YouTube posters as arbiter . Basically a player who inserts himself actively into the play is someone who reads the game well. Such a player appears aggressive compared to a counterpart who doesn't. "Mental aggressiveness" is probably a better term, but that would confuse people like you even more.

Generally it is considered barely coachable, though I would speculate that there is some conditioning at ages less than 6 that might benefit, and that could give the traditional soccer powers a persistent advantage. As a practical matter youth coaches will pick aggression and speed and then attempt to train ball control.

People who sell coaching for a living of course have a vested interest in overstating that which can be taught. No one is born knowing quantum mechanics, so teaching is relevant. But some can learn it rather easily following a set of steps, while others will not get past the first step. Teaching might not be completely irrelevant to how far one progresses, but is far less important than aptitude and motivation.
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skagitcoach

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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2017, 06:34:40 AM »

That video is not "aggression," it is cheap and dirty play...
I think that is the point he was trying to make  :(
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Re: At what age move to premier level?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2017, 12:04:43 PM »

That video is not "aggression," it is cheap and dirty play...
I think that is the point he was trying to make  :(

Nonethless I still love ooh ahh cantona   :drinks:
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