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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2017, 10:29:35 AM »

But surely one of the previous poster's points stands.  Attacking positions likely aren't as much influenced by intelligence as defense and midfield.  The idea that soccer players 'just react' like a pack of dogs to the ball bouncing around all over the field is likely more reflective of the kind of soccer tripleplay watches or admires.

I'd say that of course one of the most difficult things for players to develop is adapting their (lazy) bodies to constant alertness and movement on the field.  That does not involve intelligence.  However once their heads are up and focused on activities going on the pitch I think - in a state of constant physical alertness and motion - the defense and midfield have to stop the other team gain possession of the ball and then initiate play.  Attackers are the pack of wild dogs.  The defense and midfield - to follow the analogy - are ideally the master holding the stick or bone to be tossed to said pack of wild dogs. 

It would be interesting to see how many successful attackers went on to successful coaching positions in higher level soccer vs defense and midfield players.
Even if there are differences between positions, it doesn't make your point. The ability to process a rapidly-changing field is obviously important at every position, every level of play, and every style of play in soccer. And in basketball. And in ice hockey. And in most football positions. Etc.

None of those sports, regardless of position or level or style of play requires a very high IQ. It may not hurt, and there could even be some weak correlation, but sports like these clearly come down to lower level human functions.

A gets to the ball more often than B. (High sports IQ)  All else being equal, wouldn't you pick A over B for defender, midfielder, striker, point guard, left-fielder, short stop, wide receiver, free safety, deep-deep ...?
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2017, 01:29:58 PM »

None of those sports, regardless of position or level or style of play requires a very high IQ.

But surely they would be affected by a person of an exceptionally low IQ.  As such intelligence surely plays a role.  Without sounding disrespectful, I have been in attendance at a Special Olympics soccer game where - I assume - people of lower intelligence quotient measurements were playing.  It was evident that the players did not run as fast, pass as well, do practically anything as well as peers their own age.  To that end, given that the only difference between them and their peers was intelligence, intelligence should be viewed as having an impact on sportsmanship in the broadest sense of the word. 
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ForTheKids

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2017, 02:13:12 PM »

None of those sports, regardless of position or level or style of play requires a very high IQ.

But surely they would be affected by a person of an exceptionally low IQ.  As such intelligence surely plays a role.  Without sounding disrespectful, I have been in attendance at a Special Olympics soccer game where - I assume - people of lower intelligence quotient measurements were playing.  It was evident that the players did not run as fast, pass as well, do practically anything as well as peers their own age.  To that end, given that the only difference between them and their peers was intelligence, intelligence should be viewed as having an impact on sportsmanship in the broadest sense of the word.

I'm not sure Special Olympics demonstrates the absence of intelligence as much as it demonstrates the absence of requisite motor skills typically required to perform athletic activities at a higher level.
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silverdad

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2017, 02:19:05 PM »

None of those sports, regardless of position or level or style of play requires a very high IQ.

But surely they would be affected by a person of an exceptionally low IQ.  As such intelligence surely plays a role.  Without sounding disrespectful, I have been in attendance at a Special Olympics soccer game where - I assume - people of lower intelligence quotient measurements were playing.  It was evident that the players did not run as fast, pass as well, do practically anything as well as peers their own age.  To that end, given that the only difference between them and their peers was intelligence, intelligence should be viewed as having an impact on sportsmanship in the broadest sense of the word.

You don't get a free pass with your comments just because of the disclaimer "without sounding disrespectful" - particularly when the comments sound both disrespectful and uneducated.
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2017, 02:55:01 PM »

Consider this. In most states and high schools players have to meet academic minimums in order to play sports, and those standards are well below average. Coaches are often upset when they lose these players.

If certain sports have smarter players, it is because those sports appeal to those with higher income/IQ profiles, not because the sport itself requires a high IQ. Golf anyone?
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2017, 08:13:27 PM »

You don't get a free pass with your comments just because of the disclaimer "without sounding disrespectful" - particularly when the comments sound both disrespectful and uneducated.

Yes but at the same time if we are treat matters with dispassionate objectivity, I can't point to any studies which actually correlate high IQ and soccer proficiency, nor do I know a great deal about the IQ of professional players.  When dealing with the Special Olympics I am fairly certain that I am dealing with a controlled group of low IQ players and - given the controlled nature of the subset - I can make a correlation between IQ and playing proficiency. 

If someone one day decides to make a sporting competition only for high IQ kids - a league of geniuses - I'd be able to use that to decide if there is a correlation between IQ and playing proficiency.  Unfortunately there aren't any sort of competitive games for MENSA students that I am aware of.  It's not fair to exclude powerful evidence about the correlation between IQ and playing ability merely because it makes people uncomfortable or it has the potential for abuse or ridicule. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 08:27:32 PM by blacksheep »
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2017, 08:22:39 PM »

My point is that the idea that IQ HAS NO ROLE in soccer ability is a ludicrous proposition.  Since learning requires intelligence and intelligence helps people learn and is not likely connected with specific physical attributes (i.e. height, weight, race, size of feet etc) it stands to reason that all things being equal more intelligent players would do better than less intelligent players.  Indeed I would argue that since intelligent people have more employment prospects than less intelligent people, a pure scientific experiment (which isn't possible given social restraints) would likely demonstrate that more intelligent people make better soccer players. 

Indeed if you had a complete control of our society (something like Plato's Republic) and you snatched away kids from their parents and made one control group of kids with IQs over 140 and another group of kids who had average IQs and gave equal training to both groups the higher IQ kids would be better players on average.  If anything, as I said earlier, some intelligent parents would dissuade their kids from engaging in sports because of a variety of reasons (distracts them from learning, potential for injuries).  Poorer kids on the other hand, might be 'encouraged' into sports as a vehicle for economic advancement.  And yes of course, there is a relationship between economic background and IQ. 
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2017, 08:36:38 PM »

My point is that the idea that IQ HAS NO ROLE in soccer ability is a ludicrous proposition.
No one ever said that. I even stated that I think the minimum IQ requirement for football is higher than soccer. I believe that because you hear these anecdotal stories about players who fail because they can't master the NFL playbook. But the point is that, above a minimum which is well below the median, there are many great ball sport athletes. There is enormous evidence supporting this in the US. That is because schools here, unlike Europe, host high level sports and there is a whole industry whose purpose is keeping players academically eligible to play sports.

You are both offensive and logically wrong with this terrible evidence.

Someone did say that there were studies on the subject. Maybe someone will find them.

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ouch

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2017, 08:43:27 PM »

None of those sports, regardless of position or level or style of play requires a very high IQ.

But surely they would be affected by a person of an exceptionally low IQ.  As such intelligence surely plays a role.  Without sounding disrespectful, I have been in attendance at a Special Olympics soccer game where - I assume - people of lower intelligence quotient measurements were playing.  It was evident that the players did not run as fast, pass as well, do practically anything as well as peers their own age.  To that end, given that the only difference between them and their peers was intelligence, intelligence should be viewed as having an impact on sportsmanship in the broadest sense of the word.

Ugh!
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2017, 09:13:09 PM »

I don't understand the 'ughs' and the like.  I've said nothing disparaging in any of my posts.  The facts are that since there aren't readily available 'high IQ groups' a readily available 'low IQ group' allows for the same types of inferences.  IQ does have a role to play in the ability to play soccer.  To what degree it has a role has yet to be determined. tripleplay now claims he didn't say this or that.  The facts are that we simply don't know the extent to which 'super athletes' in the future might be helped by higher IQs.  I think a better educated soccer player, one with a high IQ or simply from hard work in academic settings, is a good thing. I am sorry if certain subjects are taboo.  The truth is where you find it. 
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2017, 11:29:19 PM »

I don't understand the 'ughs' and the like.  I've said nothing disparaging in any of my posts.  The facts are that since there aren't readily available 'high IQ groups' a readily available 'low IQ group' allows for the same types of inferences.  IQ does have a role to play in the ability to play soccer.  To what degree it has a role has yet to be determined. tripleplay now claims he didn't say this or that.  The facts are that we simply don't know the extent to which 'super athletes' in the future might be helped by higher IQs.  I think a better educated soccer player, one with a high IQ or simply from hard work in academic settings, is a good thing. I am sorry if certain subjects are taboo.  The truth is where you find it.
Perhaps, but you seem to have a strong aversion to truth.

I said explicitly that football has a large playbook that requires some intelligence to master. We have all sorts of evidence that those who couldn't do school (which is related to IQ) excel at the highest levels in soccer. And we know for a fact that there is a similar situation for other soccer-like sports played in schools.

All that your offensive "example" shows is that there is a minimum, which no one disputed and which doesn't support your conjecture.
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ThiKuBC

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2017, 06:54:19 AM »

Well to be honest I was watching my son's team play today and an idea struck me when the opposing coach did something unprecedented IMO (he basically had a huddle or timeout in effect before the kick off).  Intelligence does play a role in soccer as opposed to many other sports insofar as the players are expected to manage themselves for the duration of the halves (save perhaps for some yelling from the coach from the sidelines). 



it's unheard of for the coach to talk to the players before kick off???
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ThiKuBC

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #72 on: March 07, 2017, 06:55:24 AM »

Activities that require high intelligence don't become mass activities. The complexity of American football is higher than that of soccer, so would need higher intelligence. But my guess is that you can be well below the average IQ and still be smart enough to play football at a very high level.

I think this is an interesting thread because it is really about class. American soccer fans are upscale. They theorize that intelligence is part of the sport because it fits in with their own image.

post of the year??  :-[

oh dear me.
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merenguemom

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2017, 07:36:55 AM »

As tempting as it is to correct some of the misconceptions about IQ being foisted about here (just remember the test was developed by a proponent of eugenics), I would like to re-direct your attention to actual research studies.  Apparently the special sauce is "executive functioning."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0170845
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0034731

For a layman's synopsis of above articles: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/dec/04/barcelona-andres-iniesta-scope-embrace-brain-game-real-madrid
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bebu

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #74 on: March 07, 2017, 08:10:51 AM »

From the article:

"Perhaps it is because the methods of using shapes, dots and lab tests to identify football intelligence are a little esoteric. But Iniesta’s recent book, The Artist, tells the story of Tonny Bruins – Johan Cruyff’s right?hand man – teaching the concept of total football by using shapes and a whiteboard. Eventually a player asks: “Is that it?” And Bruins, with his basic Spanish, replies: “Yes, it’s everything. Football is simple. You divide the pitch into triangles and the key is always to have the ball and to create superiority.”

And Iniesta does it better than almost anyone."

This is true and only true for teams that play "smart soccer". There are other ways of playing soccer that do not leverage/require " high IQ". If you "kick and chase" for most of the games then having a big/fast/strong midfielder is more preferred to having a smart player. 
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #75 on: March 07, 2017, 09:32:19 AM »

it's unheard of for the coach to talk to the players before kick off???

No I am talking about a coach who during the game took his players off to the sidelines in the middle of a half and took 3 minutes to 'reprogram' them like a basketball or football coach.  The other team had to just sit there on the field waiting for them to come back on the field.  Perhaps this would feed into the 'executive functioning' idea in the article.
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #76 on: March 07, 2017, 09:39:23 AM »

All that your offensive "example" shows is that there is a minimum, which no one disputed and which doesn't support your conjecture.

But how do you know that IQ only works in one direction?  This is a 'faith based' assumption (not necessarily religious faith but faith developed from a creed or a popular idea).  Surely if IQ has an effect in one direction (i.e. low vs average IQ) it would stand to reason it would also have an effect in the other direction (low or average IQ vs high IQ).  In a scientific discussion of the evidence the onus would be upon you to demonstrate that it stops short in the other direction.  That doesn't mean that anyone would be right to simply assume a relationship in the other direction.  But it would be remarkable if there was a God or divine power which arranged the universe so that the benefits of IQ only have a positive effect in one direction.  It might be true.  I don't know.  Let's investigate.  Let's find out.

For instance if I find that there is a positive relationship between poverty and IQ it would stand to reason that wealth and IQ would also have a relationship.  I wouldn't simply assume that the children of wealthy people can't possibly have higher IQs on average than other groups simply because I don't like the implications of that research. 

As a rule you'd expect that it's better to be smart.  I would think smarter people would be better drivers, better lovers, better friends.  I can't see any reason why being less intelligence is good for anything other than helping certain parties win elections. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 09:45:59 AM by blacksheep »
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2017, 09:47:22 AM »

Thanks merenguemom.  Your article helps redefine the discussion away from IQ.  I think this is more useful. 
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ForTheKids

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2017, 09:57:18 AM »

"Perhaps it is because the methods of using shapes, dots and lab tests to identify football intelligence are a little esoteric. But Iniesta’s recent book, The Artist, tells the story of Tonny Bruins – Johan Cruyff’s right?hand man – teaching the concept of total football by using shapes and a whiteboard. Eventually a player asks: “Is that it?” And Bruins, with his basic Spanish, replies: “Yes, it’s everything. Football is simple. You divide the pitch into triangles and the key is always to have the ball and to create superiority.”

This is true and only true for teams that play "smart soccer". There are other ways of playing soccer that do not leverage/require " high IQ". If you "kick and chase" for most of the games then having a big/fast/strong midfielder is more preferred to having a smart player.

So the real question is this.

Is the soccer IQ of the coach the real constraint here ... the teacher?  Or the soccer IQ of the student?  IMO, the game is dumbed down in US youth not because coaches have low soccer IQ but because they do not want to be bothered with teaching kids something that will take years when the next tryout is just a handful of months away. Easier to steal than create.

Soccer IQ can be learned. Absolutely. 

But it is rarely taught ... repetitively here.
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #79 on: March 07, 2017, 10:33:30 AM »

From just glancing over the Swedish article and the newspaper summary - couldn't Iniesta and Xavi have 'gotten better' at this activity by playing so much soccer?  I guess I am wondering whether if you're scores improve from constantly being thrown into 'problem solving' situations in games. 
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #80 on: March 07, 2017, 12:42:31 PM »

All that your offensive "example" shows is that there is a minimum, which no one disputed and which doesn't support your conjecture.

But how do you know that IQ only works in one direction? 
I don't know it, and didn't say that because I don't need to. There is overwhelming empirical evidence that lower IQ humans can excel in team sports, including soccer.

So there are other things, much more important than IQ, that determine your sports potential. Call it "Sports IQ" call it "Jabberwocky". That is an irrelevant label.

I vaguely recall Pele discussing his poor performance in school in one of his books, even joking about it. Your basic argument is simply labelling successful players as "smart". That's a flawed approach. You have to find people who are or aren't smart according to SOMETHING OTHER THAN YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE FOR THEIR SOCCER PLAYING. For example, do they do well enough in school to meet the academic minimums to play sports at their institution?
The fortunes of one HS soccer team that I followed varied according to whether a certain player was on academic probation or not.
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #81 on: March 07, 2017, 01:01:12 PM »

Thanks merenguemom.  Your article helps redefine the discussion away from IQ.  I think this is more useful.
It's an interesting read, but still misses the main point. The goal isn't just to find various things that correlate in some way ("good soccer players are more likely to speak European languages"). The goal is to look for the biggest correlation, and then determine causation.

So if 90% of success at soccer is X, which is independent of IQ, we can make strong statements about the importance of IQ.

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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #82 on: March 07, 2017, 04:34:15 PM »

It's an interesting read, but still misses the main point.

It ignores YOUR main point undoubtedly because the evidence didn't support the inherited prejudices of Anglo-Americans.  But then these prejudices can be disproved by decades of failure at international tournaments.  Even the best British teams have only a token British player or two.  The old ideas about booting the ball and chasing are history.  Intelligence seems to be the latest 'fad.'  Only time will tell if there is scientific evidence to support it. 

The goal isn't just to find various things that correlate in some way ("good soccer players are more likely to speak European languages"). The goal is to look for the biggest correlation, and then determine causation.

No it isn't.  This is a scientific paper.  They aren't trying to get the 'last word' or even to decide an issue.  They are only presenting findings developed from empirical observation.  Sheesh. 

So if 90% of success at soccer is X, which is independent of IQ, we can make strong statements about the importance of IQ.

As I said earlier in the thread - you can't just keep spouting beliefs or prejudices and have them taken seriously.  I doubt you know the IQs of players or how they would respond to various personality tests so you simply don't know whether there correlations, meaningful or otherwise.  Let's hope that after more studies a pattern emerges.  That's how science works. 
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #83 on: March 07, 2017, 05:59:18 PM »



So if 90% of success at soccer is X, which is independent of IQ, we can make strong statements about the importance of IQ.

As I said earlier in the thread - you can't just keep spouting beliefs or prejudices and have them taken seriously.  I doubt you know the IQs of players or how they would respond to various personality tests so you simply don't know whether there correlations, meaningful or otherwise.  Let's hope that after more studies a pattern emerges.  That's how science works.
You are the one who keeps ignoring the inconvenient facts - successful real world soccer players having histories consistent with lower IQ. On your side, you don't have anything but your subjective impression of intelligence from an interview. LOL
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #84 on: March 07, 2017, 06:34:22 PM »

So refresh my memory - what 'facts' have you introduced into the discussion that I am ignoring? 
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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #86 on: March 07, 2017, 06:47:42 PM »

So refresh my memory - what 'facts' have you introduced into the discussion that I am ignoring?
Messi and Pele were poor students, but are usually considered the two greatest soccer players of all time.

High schools have rather low academic requirements to play sports, but there are soccer players on academic probation.

IQ and school performance are correlated.

Your statements are bizarre - as if you have no connection whatsoever to anyone athletic.
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tripleplay

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tripleplay

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #88 on: March 07, 2017, 07:00:08 PM »

But it would be remarkable if there was a God or divine power which arranged the universe so that the benefits of IQ only have a positive effect in one direction.  It might be true.  I don't know.  Let's investigate.  Let's find out.

There is little to no point investigating a small effect, if there are big differences between players caused by other things.

There can be high IQ and low IQ blind people, but I don't know of a single blind person who plays soccer well. Therefore, sightedness is more important that IQ.

There can be high IQ and low IQ people whose running pace is at the 1st percentile. None of those people play soccer well. Therefore, running speed is more important than IQ.   

Maybe you are right. Having a higher IQ makes people better at soccer. But if it is the 87th most important factor, it doesn't really matter.

Having a high sports IQ, which though not precisely defined reflects the ability to read and respond to a rapidly changing field/court situation, is likely very high on the list.
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blacksheep

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Re: Welcome to Crossfire Senior High School
« Reply #89 on: March 07, 2017, 08:56:27 PM »

You said:

successful real world soccer players having histories consistent with lower IQ.

I am merely taking you to task for saying this.  I have since taken the POV of the article as it is a scientific study and we should always prefer scientific methodology over 'folk wisdom.' 
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