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Author Topic: How much training is too much?  (Read 2121 times)

bebu

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How much training is too much?
« on: March 15, 2017, 10:13:39 AM »

Came across this Crossfire Instagram post, describing a 2004 born player training essentially 6 hours a day. I've seen him play and he is in deed a very dominant player. Probably he'll get a national call up very soon. However is training 6 hours a day (including 4 hours continuously) the right thing to do for a 13 year old? Even top Academies like Barcelona split training into 2 sessions, with max 2 hour each.
Is this what it's going to take if a player wants to be the best?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP-kG_nBGCR/
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2017, 10:29:15 AM »

Came across this Crossfire Instagram post, describing a 2004 born player training essentially 6 hours a day. I've seen him play and he is in deed a very dominant player. Probably he'll get a national call up very soon. However is training 6 hours a day (including 4 hours continuously) the right thing to do for a 13 year old? Even top Academies like Barcelona split training into 2 sessions, with max 2 hour each.
Is this what it's going to take if a player wants to be the best?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP-kG_nBGCR/

In the US, a kid doing 6 hours a day will burn out at some point. Mainly because the incentive will run out.

You cannot compare a Barca, Ajax academic kid to a kid in a US Academy or club....the US is scrubville.

That kid would be better off doing homework..... 2-3 hours a day and cutting his soccer a day back to 2-3

tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2017, 10:32:42 AM »

Came across this Crossfire Instagram post, describing a 2004 born player training essentially 6 hours a day. I've seen him play and he is in deed a very dominant player. Probably he'll get a national call up very soon. However is training 6 hours a day (including 4 hours continuously) the right thing to do for a 13 year old? Even top Academies like Barcelona split training into 2 sessions, with max 2 hour each.
Is this what it's going to take if a player wants to be the best?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP-kG_nBGCR/

In the US, a kid doing 6 hours a day will burn out at some point. Mainly because the incentive will run out.

You cannot compare a Barca, Ajax academic kid to a kid in a US Academy or club....the US is scrubville.
Lol. Most kids will burn out at a lot less than 6. But not every kid. There is a lot of individual variation.
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2017, 10:36:10 AM »

Came across this Crossfire Instagram post, describing a 2004 born player training essentially 6 hours a day. I've seen him play and he is in deed a very dominant player. Probably he'll get a national call up very soon. However is training 6 hours a day (including 4 hours continuously) the right thing to do for a 13 year old? Even top Academies like Barcelona split training into 2 sessions, with max 2 hour each.
Is this what it's going to take if a player wants to be the best?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP-kG_nBGCR/

In the US, a kid doing 6 hours a day will burn out at some point. Mainly because the incentive will run out.

You cannot compare a Barca, Ajax academic kid to a kid in a US Academy or club....the US is scrubville.
Lol. Most kids will burn out at a lot less than 6. But not every kid. There is a lot of individual variation.

Reality is he will burn out........... and wish he spent more time on other things.

Until then....it's nice to see such a dedicated kid

tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2017, 10:49:18 AM »

Came across this Crossfire Instagram post, describing a 2004 born player training essentially 6 hours a day. I've seen him play and he is in deed a very dominant player. Probably he'll get a national call up very soon. However is training 6 hours a day (including 4 hours continuously) the right thing to do for a 13 year old? Even top Academies like Barcelona split training into 2 sessions, with max 2 hour each.
Is this what it's going to take if a player wants to be the best?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BP-kG_nBGCR/

In the US, a kid doing 6 hours a day will burn out at some point. Mainly because the incentive will run out.

You cannot compare a Barca, Ajax academic kid to a kid in a US Academy or club....the US is scrubville.
Lol. Most kids will burn out at a lot less than 6. But not every kid. There is a lot of individual variation.

Reality is he will burn out........... and wish he spent more time on other things.

Until then....it's nice to see such a dedicated kid
Read Andre Agassi's autobiography. Pushed insanely by his father. Became the best tennis player in the world. Hated it.

Obsession surely doesn't guarantee success, but it does seem to correlate. We should have a system that is designed for the balanced masses, but which accommodates variation.
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2017, 12:39:57 PM »

I guess the hope is people are well rounded. The issue with focusing so hard on one thing is that what happens "IF" it does not in the end benefit the individual. My hope is for this young man is that he is well rounded outside of 6 hours of soccer training.

Being well rounded, street smart, book smart, and overall something besides a soccer player is important in life.

ForTheKids

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2017, 01:04:13 PM »

If he is looking to leave the US and go to Europe to play, press on! But his window for that closes by 18.  If he is thinking to be in MLS, someone needs to sit down with him and explain the average income of an MLS player, the average career of an MLS player (< 24 months), and the likelihood in being drafted of every seeing the field (I believe it is under 20% for those drafted).

He needs an education. If he can do both concurrently, great. But if he is risking his future for this gambit, he needs to be talked to.

And that, in the end, is why elite youth soccer in America is what it has become relative to the rest of world ... a sport for the affluent.
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4soccer

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 06:32:18 PM »

If a player that young is practicing that long on a daily basis I would be very worried about overuse injuries. If a 13 year old boy's joints are not ready for weight training, I can't imagine they are ready for this. All types of injuries are more common when muscles are fatigued.
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raddad

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 07:10:14 PM »

this amount of training is common in a lot of sports for kids this age nowadays. 30+ hours a week is typical for gymnasts, figure skaters, elite swimmers. 99.99% burn out and the 0.01% that survive go on and win olympic medals.
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 07:13:36 PM »

this amount of training is common in a lot of sports for kids this age nowadays. 30+ hours a week is typical for gymnasts, figure skaters, elite swimmers. 99.99% burn out and the 0.01% that survive go on and win olympic medals.

6 hours X 7 days = a bit more than 30  :police:

tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 08:49:32 PM »

this amount of training is common in a lot of sports for kids this age nowadays. 30+ hours a week is typical for gymnasts, figure skaters, elite swimmers. 99.99% burn out and the 0.01% that survive go on and win olympic medals.
Your figures are made up, of course. Lots of people can and do sustain high levels of activity for a long time. They do sports in college and the rest of their lives.

The risk of overuse injury from training would seem to be very small in soccer. On the other hand, the returns from training, especially at such a late age, are probably a lot less than those other sports, too.
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raddad

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2017, 02:47:05 PM »

of course you know that ncaa athletes are limited to 20 hours in their sport per week.

30+ hours of practice per week is a very strenuous and physically demanding schedule. only a few can keep this schedule for more than a few years, and none can keep it up forever. that's why careers in these sports that require this number of training hours are so short. gymnasts, olympic swimmers, figure skaters, they all retire (burn out) in their early 20's.

Lots of people can and do sustain high levels of activity for a long time. They do sports in college and the rest of their lives.
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tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2017, 05:27:39 PM »

of course you know that ncaa athletes are limited to 20 hours in their sport per week.

30+ hours of practice per week is a very strenuous and physically demanding schedule. only a few can keep this schedule for more than a few years, and none can keep it up forever. that's why careers in these sports that require this number of training hours are so short. gymnasts, olympic swimmers, figure skaters, they all retire (burn out) in their early 20's.

Lots of people can and do sustain high levels of activity for a long time. They do sports in college and the rest of their lives.
For the most part, people behave rationally. If there is something to be gained by heavy training, they do it. If not, they don't.

Gymnasts and skaters don't have short careers, they have careers that start very intensely very early. People stop participating when they stop improving and stop winning. Gymnasts peak early so their careers typically end early.

Even on the non-elite side. Many a gymnast who quits at 13 (after 8 years) will have put in more hours and achieved a higher level of proficiency than a soccer player who plays through college age. It's just a more specialized, tougher, sport. Soccer is far more recreational - lower levels and less intensity. But to say that higher intensity couldn't benefit a particular individual playing soccer is ridiculous.

Btw, from the instagram at the top, he is doing some morning training, then training with 3 teams. We don't know (from that source at least) whether he does that every day, or how long the morning session is. My guess it is more like 20 hours/week.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 05:44:20 PM by tripleplay »
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2017, 09:38:29 AM »

I think even 20 hours a week is too much.

Think about it...2hrs a day which almost no players do consistently 7 days a week would be 14hrs.

I'd be okay with a player doing 15 hours a week max sole on soccer training. If they want to mix in other sports or physical activities on top of it great, but there is definitely a need to diversify. Being a well rounded athlete as you age gives you the opportunity to have options as well.

The other thing young players should realize is that taking a few hours week to study the game.....watch games will help you understand tactics, positioning. I don't mean just watching the EPL. Watch EPL, MLS, And any other leagues you can to get a better understanding of tactics.....even youth games. Mental knowledge can help more than that extra few hours training with a ball.

tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2017, 10:29:42 AM »

I think even 20 hours a week is too much.

Think about it...2hrs a day which almost no players do consistently 7 days a week would be 14hrs.

I'd be okay with a player doing 15 hours a week max sole on soccer training. If they want to mix in other sports or physical activities on top of it great, but there is definitely a need to diversify. Being a well rounded athlete as you age gives you the opportunity to have options as well.

The other thing young players should realize is that taking a few hours week to study the game.....watch games will help you understand tactics, positioning. I don't mean just watching the EPL. Watch EPL, MLS, And any other leagues you can to get a better understanding of tactics.....even youth games. Mental knowledge can help more than that extra few hours training with a ball.
If you take the numbers that bebu ascribes to Barcelona Academy, you get 4 hours per day times 5-7 days (estimated) which is 20-28 hours per week. It seems unlikely that the club or players would do them if there were no benefit. In gymnastics, a 7 year old on the team track will train about 12 hours per week while the elites would train 20-24 hours per week at that age. This isn't done on a whim. It's done that way because, along with talent and drive, gymnasts need to put in that kind of time to progress.

Barcelona's Academy has the pick of the world's best talent, yet still has a 90% failure rate (making Barca A) These athletes rationally give up well-roundedness (which has no value) in return for a small chance of getting very good at a sport, with a good pay day. That makes sense, and is what happens in the US and everywhere else. It's just that in the US, people select sports other than soccer, because those sports have much higher returns than soccer here. Rounded to the nearest percent, the USSDA has a 100% failure rate.

So basically the formula is that you have to be born with unbelievably rare gifts and then you have to train very hard on top of that. But that formula is completely irrelevant for the 99.99% who won't get that good no matter how hard they train. They can marginally improve but not so much that it is going to change their lives. Those people might as well train less and call themselves "well rounded", or focus on educational attainment, as you suggest.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 10:41:32 AM by tripleplay »
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2017, 01:16:42 PM »

I think even 20 hours a week is too much.

Think about it...2hrs a day which almost no players do consistently 7 days a week would be 14hrs.

I'd be okay with a player doing 15 hours a week max sole on soccer training. If they want to mix in other sports or physical activities on top of it great, but there is definitely a need to diversify. Being a well rounded athlete as you age gives you the opportunity to have options as well.

The other thing young players should realize is that taking a few hours week to study the game.....watch games will help you understand tactics, positioning. I don't mean just watching the EPL. Watch EPL, MLS, And any other leagues you can to get a better understanding of tactics.....even youth games. Mental knowledge can help more than that extra few hours training with a ball.
If you take the numbers that bebu ascribes to Barcelona Academy, you get 4 hours per day times 5-7 days (estimated) which is 20-28 hours per week. It seems unlikely that the club or players would do them if there were no benefit. In gymnastics, a 7 year old on the team track will train about 12 hours per week while the elites would train 20-24 hours per week at that age. This isn't done on a whim. It's done that way because, along with talent and drive, gymnasts need to put in that kind of time to progress.

Barcelona's Academy has the pick of the world's best talent, yet still has a 90% failure rate (making Barca A) These athletes rationally give up well-roundedness (which has no value) in return for a small chance of getting very good at a sport, with a good pay day. That makes sense, and is what happens in the US and everywhere else. It's just that in the US, people select sports other than soccer, because those sports have much higher returns than soccer here. Rounded to the nearest percent, the USSDA has a 100% failure rate.

So basically the formula is that you have to be born with unbelievably rare gifts and then you have to train very hard on top of that. But that formula is completely irrelevant for the 99.99% who won't get that good no matter how hard they train. They can marginally improve but not so much that it is going to change their lives. Those people might as well train less and call themselves "well rounded", or focus on educational attainment, as you suggest.

This kid isn't at Barca.......... we are talking Apples and Oranges

Try not to compare anything US youth soccer to Barca, it makes you look stupid. If this kid was at Bradenton in FL with other top prospects for the US U-17 team.....then I'd at least hear your stupidity, but he's not.

There is a huge difference between kids at Barca/Ajax....... Those kids don't choose to be involved, they are chosen, and given the chance to live that experience daily. The 90% rate you talk about does not include those that have success outside of the Barca or Ajax top teams. Keep your idiotic stats to yourself, unless you want to include those who make it at other clubs. It may only increase to 75% make it somewhere but I promise you it's not a 90% failure rate.

#checkmate

tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2017, 02:29:09 PM »

So if he wants to find out whether this level of training will make him better, he can (1) try it or (2) take the advice of some clown who thinks he knows what is best for everyone and not try it, and never know. Seems like a no-brainer.
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Squash

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2017, 03:15:56 PM »

So if he wants to find out whether this level of training will make him better, he can (1) try it or (2) take the advice of some clown who thinks he knows what is best for everyone and not try it, and never know. Seems like a no-brainer.

You talking into the mirror?

Must be
 

raddad

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tripleplay

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2017, 11:25:48 PM »


http://www.inspirecoaches.com/2015/11/the-structure-of-barcelonas-youth-academy-hour-by-hour/


Your second source says that there are 5600 program hours in 10 years, plus hours outside of organized training. And they are supposed to arrive as 10 year olds with 3000 to 5000 hours. That is at least 8600 hours in about 15 years, or 11 hours per week. But with a reasonable amount of unstructured training and more time at younger ages, it could easily be 15000 hours in 15 years, or 19 hours per week.

What is interesting is that according to the source each player averages 185 hours of game time per year. Very few Americans will get half that amount of game time, and many more around a quarter of that. We have a similar number of games but far less practice games.

The other interesting thing is they are expecting the kids to have been training about 600 to 1000 hours per year from ages 5-10, rates higher than the program offers for its older players. This shows the importance of intensive training while young, and reinforces the importance of recruiting. I.e Barca expects close to half of the youth training to be complete before they even arrive to the program!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 11:53:34 PM by tripleplay »
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raddad

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 01:37:15 PM »

I was confused by that, maybe the data for that source is old. the main entry point for la masia currently is age 6, so they are doing all the early training at barca.

The other interesting thing is they are expecting the kids to have been training about 600 to 1000 hours per year from ages 5-10, rates higher than the program offers for its older players. This shows the importance of intensive training while young, and reinforces the importance of recruiting. I.e Barca expects close to half of the youth training to be complete before they even arrive to the program!
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ThiKuBC

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Re: How much training is too much?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 03:16:01 PM »

If he is looking to leave the US and go to Europe to play, press on! But his window for that closes by 18.  If he is thinking to be in MLS, someone needs to sit down with him and explain the average income of an MLS player, the average career of an MLS player (< 24 months), and the likelihood in being drafted of every seeing the field (I believe it is under 20% for those drafted).

He needs an education. If he can do both concurrently, great. But if he is risking his future for this gambit, he needs to be talked to.

And that, in the end, is why elite youth soccer in America is what it has become relative to the rest of world ... a sport for the affluent.

Actually that's pretty much completely incorrect. If he doesn't have a Euro passport he can't even go to Europe to play until he turns 18. Look at Alphonso Davies of the Vancouver Whitecaps. At 16 he's clearly one of the best players on that team already - if he had a Euro passport someone like Man Utd (who have been actively scouting him) would already have shelled out millions to sign him on the off chance he can develop into a Premier League level player.
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