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Author Topic: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas  (Read 1726 times)

Dead Guy

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Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« on: March 29, 2017, 04:52:03 PM »

It seems a little backwards that our best women's players are leaving our NWSL clubs to play with the European clubs. Like Alex Morgan who now plays for Lyons FC and Carli Lloyd playing for Manchester City.

Is our NWSL not good enough compared to the European clubs/leagues?  When NWSL started we had other countries top players coming here but now they are going there....like Marta who is older but still a very player.

Looks like the US needs to keep up with what the European leagues/clubs are doing so we can keep our top players and to bring their (other countries) top players here.
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ForTheKids

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 09:09:34 PM »

You raise a very good point.

My observations.

Our best players came back the two years prior to the women's world cup because it was made known that if you were not playing here the likelihood of rostering for WWC was low.  Plus they did that deal with NWSL that gave them upwards of a 20X on salary versus the base salary.  So, yeah, they came back.

What's changed? WWC is a bit off. They do not need to be around right now.  The agreement with US Soccer is incomplete.  Plus, the core of the league ... those players that make the 15K base (and almost all went to 4-year colleges and got degrees) ... has figured out that playing in the NWSL besides a couple years is a road to poverty.  Look at the number of players 'retiring' at age 25 after a few years realizing they make more money serving pizzas in Belltown. 

In Europe, the clubs were smart and aligned the women's teams with the men's team, providing a financial cushion to give the women a semi-living wage while they play. Here, with the exception of a couple clubs (hello Portland), the people who formed this league made a strategic blunder by making them standalone enterprises.  The cost was incurred by the players by playing at rates below what is needed to make it a career.

Expect to see a steady flow to Europe and Asia, not only of the USWNT but others that may now never set foot in the NWSL. 

In short, its about money.  Hmm. Shocker.




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EagleclawFootballAcademy

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 11:03:40 PM »

Expect to see a steady flow to Europe and Asia, not only of the USWNT but others that may now never set foot in the NWSL. 

We agree with this, and its true not only of US players but also international players who make stops in the NWSL.  Those internationals quickly figure out Europe is the better destination.  Last fall, two players with Washington Spirit moved to Valencia CF, Estefania Banini and Yanara Aedo.  Banini is from Argentina and they call her "la Messi" as she is an extremely technical player.  Valencia's women's youth academy is outstanding.  From the perspective of the ideal development environment, competition and compensation, destinations like Valencia are ideal.  (Full disclosure:  Eagleclaw is in collaboration with Valencia). At Eagleclaw, we are working  hard to open pathways to Spain for our most talented girls (and boys!).

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ForTheKids

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 08:01:20 AM »

Expect to see a steady flow to Europe and Asia, not only of the USWNT but others that may now never set foot in the NWSL. 

We agree with this, and its true not only of US players but also international players who make stops in the NWSL.  Those internationals quickly figure out Europe is the better destination.  Last fall, two players with Washington Spirit moved to Valencia CF, Estefania Banini and Yanara Aedo.  Banini is from Argentina and they call her "la Messi" as she is an extremely technical player.  Valencia's women's youth academy is outstanding.  From the perspective of the ideal development environment, competition and compensation, destinations like Valencia are ideal.  (Full disclosure:  Eagleclaw is in collaboration with Valencia). At Eagleclaw, we are working  hard to open pathways to Spain for our most talented girls (and boys!).

Those who work to expand the options for US players in international destinations are doing great work.  All soccer for US youth should not end with the MLS and NWSL.  Many of the best players are a better fit abroad, as anyone that saw the last two USMNT team matches can understand visually.

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metz123

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2017, 10:04:12 AM »


oh I don't think that this is really about the quality of soccer or the money. I'd bet that it's probably even more about taking an opportunity to live abroad for a few years, get exposure to a new culture and environment while surrounded by a nice support group. I know quite a few people that have taken the chance to work overseas in a variety of locations. It was more about the opportunity to try something new than it was a career choice.

I think quite a few people are making this out to be something that it isn't.
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ForTheKids

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2017, 12:42:40 PM »


oh I don't think that this is really about the quality of soccer or the money. I'd bet that it's probably even more about taking an opportunity to live abroad for a few years, get exposure to a new culture and environment while surrounded by a nice support group. I know quite a few people that have taken the chance to work overseas in a variety of locations. It was more about the opportunity to try something new than it was a career choice.

I think quite a few people are making this out to be something that it isn't.

I would disagree. I have spoke with a number of the Reign players personally, both those that are there and those that no longer are, and the money thing is huge with a capital H.  I doubt you'd be excited about getting $5/hour after graduating from college, would you?

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All for One

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2017, 01:47:29 PM »

When your top players start to abandon the league, it clearly tells everyone that the league isn't very good, and may be in deep trouble. That can't be the message that the NWSL wants out there but they are struggling to come up with an alternative message that says otherwise.
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tripleplay

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2017, 08:18:06 PM »

I also wonder if the focus on the GDA makes the NWSL seem and act more like youth clubs to the players. Most of the players played at top colleges and are hardly going to want to go back to High School.

As a potential fan, I can't see the Reign as "professional" soccer when their main activity is screwing up youth soccer. I won't spend a nickel of my money on them.

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Squash

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 09:08:28 PM »

I also wonder if the focus on the GDA makes the NWSL seem and act more like youth clubs to the players. Most of the players played at top colleges and are hardly going to want to go back to High School.

As a potential fan, I can't see the Reign as "professional" soccer when their main activity is screwing up youth soccer. I won't spend a nickel of my money on them.

Agreed....rare with you, but on this 100%

ForTheKids

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 07:38:40 AM »

I also wonder if the focus on the GDA makes the NWSL seem and act more like youth clubs to the players. Most of the players played at top colleges and are hardly going to want to go back to High School.

As a potential fan, I can't see the Reign as "professional" soccer when their main activity is screwing up youth soccer. I won't spend a nickel of my money on them.

Totally agree
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metz123

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 08:54:50 AM »


oh I don't think that this is really about the quality of soccer or the money. I'd bet that it's probably even more about taking an opportunity to live abroad for a few years, get exposure to a new culture and environment while surrounded by a nice support group. I know quite a few people that have taken the chance to work overseas in a variety of locations. It was more about the opportunity to try something new than it was a career choice.

I think quite a few people are making this out to be something that it isn't.

I would disagree. I have spoke with a number of the Reign players personally, both those that are there and those that no longer are, and the money thing is huge with a capital H.  I doubt you'd be excited about getting $5/hour after graduating from college, would you?

If you aren't on your respective national team you aren't making a living playing soccer as a woman. It's not a living wage, here or abroad if you aren't being supplemented by the national program. The european leagues aren't drawing more than 3k fans per game. That's not going to support a living wage for a club.

In fact a large chunk of the MLS players are barely making a living wage.

AFA comparing the Reign vs the Sounders. Both have a material investment in youth soccer. They are 2 peas in the same pod.
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tripleplay

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 11:45:46 AM »


If you aren't on your respective national team you aren't making a living playing soccer as a woman. It's not a living wage, here or abroad if you aren't being supplemented by the national program. The european leagues aren't drawing more than 3k fans per game. That's not going to support a living wage for a club.

I would imagine in Europe women's salaries are subsidized by the men's game.

The history of soccer leagues in the US is that they last a few years and then fold. The MLS going on 20 may break that pattern, but the NWSL seems like it will follow the typical course. If American players can make better money in Europe, I sure wouldn't fault them for going there. I don't see any purpose to rescuing the NWSL. Let it run its course.  The whole business of spreading out the subsidized USWNT players was ill-conceived. From a soccer perspective, it's the exact opposite of what you want to do. You want the players to learn to play together, and you want to give hungry non-USWNT players a chance to show them up.
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tripleplay

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 04:05:41 PM »


In fact a large chunk of the MLS players are barely making a living wage.

Incorrect. The minimum MLS salary is $51,500, about the US median family income. The Federal poverty level is $12,000 for a single person.

The median MLS salary is $117,000. The average MLS salary is $317,000.

10 years ago, metz123' statement might have been valid. No longer. MLS players are paid well compared to their counterparts in the general public. Their pay only comes up short when comparing them to other major league athletes. Which shouldn't be surprising as the MLS is sort of a hybrid between a minor and major league - i.e. it is the major league of a minor sport.
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tripleplay

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2017, 10:17:37 AM »

Women's professional soccer should be organized in the following way:
There should be an exhibition season consisting of 6 to 8 teams. The teams would be USWNT A (paid well by US Soccer), USWNT B (paid less by US Soccer), two or so other American teams with players and coaches who think they know how to do things better than US Soccer (here is your chance Squash and FTK), and 1 to 2 teams each from Canada and Mexico. The teams would share revenue.

The teams could be based wherever, but they would play wherever the most tickets could be sold. There should be a good media package.

This makes a lot more sense than having a zillion geographically based teams with no revenue potential. It would be fine to have a conventional league as well, to slowly build interest of that type, but it shouldn't be subsidized.

This is a smaller, more exclusive, more interesting league where the focus is on the play, not some meaningless "championship" dreamed up by second-tier owners.

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raddad

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017, 10:25:12 AM »

us soccer could try this if/when nwsl fails. it's not a bad idea.

btw, here are last year's mls salaries, from the mls player's union website:
https://www.mlsplayers.org/images/September%2015%202016%20Salary%20Information%20-%20Alphabetical.pdf

Women's professional soccer should be organized in the following way:
There should be an exhibition season consisting of 6 to 8 teams. The teams would be USWNT A (paid well by US Soccer), USWNT B (paid less by US Soccer), two or so other American teams with players and coaches who think they know how to do things better than US Soccer (here is your chance Squash and FTK), and 1 to 2 teams each from Canada and Mexico. The teams would share revenue.

The teams could be based wherever, but they would play wherever the most tickets could be sold. There should be a good media package.

This makes a lot more sense than having a zillion geographically based teams with no revenue potential. It would be fine to have a conventional league as well, to slowly build interest of that type, but it shouldn't be subsidized.

This is a smaller, more exclusive, more interesting league where the focus is on the play, not some meaningless "championship" dreamed up by second-tier owners.
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ForTheKids

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2017, 01:53:26 PM »

Women's professional soccer should be organized in the following way:
There should be an exhibition season consisting of 6 to 8 teams. The teams would be USWNT A (paid well by US Soccer), USWNT B (paid less by US Soccer), two or so other American teams with players and coaches who think they know how to do things better than US Soccer (here is your chance Squash and FTK), and 1 to 2 teams each from Canada and Mexico. The teams would share revenue.

The teams could be based wherever, but they would play wherever the most tickets could be sold. There should be a good media package.

This makes a lot more sense than having a zillion geographically based teams with no revenue potential. It would be fine to have a conventional league as well, to slowly build interest of that type, but it shouldn't be subsidized.

This is a smaller, more exclusive, more interesting league where the focus is on the play, not some meaningless "championship" dreamed up by second-tier owners.

No argument here
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soccer45girls

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2017, 06:17:51 PM »

us soccer could try this if/when nwsl fails. it's not a bad idea.

btw, here are last year's mls salaries, from the mls player's union website:
https://www.mlsplayers.org/images/September%2015%202016%20Salary%20Information%20-%20Alphabetical.pdf

Women's professional soccer should be organized in the following way:
There should be an exhibition season consisting of 6 to 8 teams. The teams would be USWNT A (paid well by US Soccer), USWNT B (paid less by US Soccer), two or so other American teams with players and coaches who think they know how to do things better than US Soccer (here is your chance Squash and FTK), and 1 to 2 teams each from Canada and Mexico. The teams would share revenue.

The teams could be based wherever, but they would play wherever the most tickets could be sold. There should be a good media package.

This makes a lot more sense than having a zillion geographically based teams with no revenue potential. It would be fine to have a conventional league as well, to slowly build interest of that type, but it shouldn't be subsidized.

This is a smaller, more exclusive, more interesting league where the focus is on the play, not some meaningless "championship" dreamed up by second-tier owners.
Those are some crazy numbers! It's nothing like football, but still amazing! Thanks for sharing!
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Soundbound

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2017, 09:28:44 PM »

Not sure where to begin with this thread, but a couple observations:

-- NWSL is entering its 5th season (uncharted ground for a women's pro soccer league), just signed a new long-term tv deal, significantly increased pay (not enough, but MLS didn't pay much in its early days either), has a bunch of stable franchises with consistently decent attendance and looks poised for expansion next year. The league is hardly faltering, and they put a good product on the field.

-- Alex Morgan and Carli Lloyd are not the future of the USWNT, and Morgan is coming back for most of the season. Crystal Dunn went overseas too. But other strong players like Horan and Heath came back from Europe and stayed, the vast majority of the USWNT is in the league, and national team players from other countries (France, Australia, Japan, etc) are in the league too. There isn't some mass exodus, although the increased strength and $ in the leagues in Europe and Australia is creating more opportunities for players. More a sign of the (gradually) increasing overall strength and popularity of the women's game than any weakness in NWSL.

-- If you see the Reign partnering in a GDA program as a reason not to support the pro team, that's just kind of bizarre. In both MLS and every pro soccer league, clubs run or have relationships with youth academies, and US Soccer has clearly made it a priority to invest time and resources over an extended period to make both NWSL and GDA work. GDA doesn't seem to be a distraction from anything the Reign's first team does, and if anything seems to provide synergies (marketing support from the youth clubs, staffing, etc)
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raddad

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2017, 09:57:18 PM »

I agree with this, not sure why others are so adamant that it's a bad thing for Reign to be involved with youth soccer?

-- If you see the Reign partnering in a GDA program as a reason not to support the pro team, that's just kind of bizarre. In both MLS and every pro soccer league, clubs run or have relationships with youth academies, and US Soccer has clearly made it a priority to invest time and resources over an extended period to make both NWSL and GDA work. GDA doesn't seem to be a distraction from anything the Reign's first team does, and if anything seems to provide synergies (marketing support from the youth clubs, staffing, etc)
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tripleplay

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Re: Our Best WNT players are starting to play over seas
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 04:41:12 AM »

I agree with this, not sure why others are so adamant that it's a bad thing for Reign to be involved with youth soccer?

-- If you see the Reign partnering in a GDA program as a reason not to support the pro team, that's just kind of bizarre. In both MLS and every pro soccer league, clubs run or have relationships with youth academies, and US Soccer has clearly made it a priority to invest time and resources over an extended period to make both NWSL and GDA work. GDA doesn't seem to be a distraction from anything the Reign's first team does, and if anything seems to provide synergies (marketing support from the youth clubs, staffing, etc)
Don't know about others, but my view is that they have little to no experience in both youth and professional soccer. Their objectives and those of youth soccer are in conflict. Basically they pick a random club with which to affiliate and that harms the 99% of youth players who aren't at that club.

Soundbound made some good points, however, and perhaps my expectation of the Reign's imminent death was wishful thinking.
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