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Author Topic: RCL Div 1 relegation  (Read 2234 times)

KloppFan

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RCL Div 1 relegation
« on: May 25, 2017, 07:03:01 PM »

High School age.  Big Club A team. Team ends up in last place on last weekend of RCL season.  Teams 4 thru 8 are only two points apart in standings.  Last place team being relegated was a mid pack team most of season until unfortunate events imploded them in last few weeks.  Overall, the team was probably the 4th or 5th best team.  Their goal differential is only -3.  Other teams one point ahead in standings had far worse stats, including one team that had a -24 goal differential.

The question for you is:  couldn't this team still be considered to be able to stay in Div. 1?

Having looked over the bylaws in the RCL, it appears that in the HS age groups, 9 teams can play in Div. 1 as long as the DOC committee allows it. 

I don't see how an arguably top 5 team should have to be relegated.  That would serve no purpose for the players, especially considering that college is right around the corner for some of the them.  Shouldn't this be about what is in the best interests of the players and their development?

Please help me with whether this team has a shot at petitioning to stay in Div. 1.  I figure you forum members can give us some advice. 
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rustysurf83

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2017, 07:22:32 PM »

Looks like all of those teams are pretty well matched outside of PacNW and Spokane.  RCL doesn't have the framework, but those two teams need a higher level of competition.
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2017, 12:54:38 AM »

Welcome to the world of automatic (aka "mindless") promotion and relegation. Your mistake is in believing that someone cares about players. No, the purpose of these rules is so that the league administrators can pretend that they are managing some elite European professional league. Mind you, automatic promotion and relegation doesn't make much sense in that venue, either, but it at least there it is a way to sell tickets to otherwise meaningless games, so there is a financial purpose.
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EWSoccer64

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2017, 01:44:53 AM »

BIG CLUB A TEAM?   I doubt they will be relegated.  The genesis for this whole charade was when a Crossfire Boys A team did not make 1st division at U-14 at LPTs, back in the day.
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Cmon-man

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 06:57:57 PM »

Are you friggin kidding me?
The team finished in last place in the division and now want a special accommodation to stay up because the girls had a rough last (5) weeks?
I assure you, your 'Big Club" would laugh at another club if they asked for the same accommodation.
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KloppFan

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 07:51:28 PM »

I appreciate your opinion Cmon-man, seriously.  I would like to hear more negative comments if someone feels that way.  To be honest, though, I haven't encountered hardly anyone that doesn't think that we have a legitimate proposal. 

Here is a few more stats about the season:  Our team never gave up more than two goals, and in the games we lost, we never lost by more than one goal.  Rustysurf pointed out that the two top teams are a cut above the rest (no disagreement), but even against those teams, we tied them twice and lost by one goal to each. 

Since the bylaws state that nine teams can be in Div. 1, why should we need to play in Div. 2? For those that agree with me, please help me with what is the proper course of action to take.  Our team would really appreciate your help.
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stusm

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 08:56:03 PM »

Suck it up and follow the rules.
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Cmon-man

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 10:53:09 PM »

Honestly, if the team 'imploded' over the last few games which resulted in a lower quality of play and thus a string of losses, how is that an argument to remain in D1?
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pnwfan

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 11:09:24 PM »

Good grief.  Someone has to finish last.  I can't imagine what happened, except what happens to many teams...injuries, illness, etc. but that is the nature of the beast IMHO.  Our team started out in first place, and due to some unfortunate circumstances ended up in 5th.  Should we be promoted?  Nope.  I can't imagine why the team should not be relegated, but again, just my opinion.  Last place is last place (profound statement, I know).

 :angel:
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KloppFan

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 08:27:44 AM »

I don't have any complaints about the relegation process, and am plenty fine if it happens.  We ended up in last place, plain and simple. Division 2 has great competition also.  It's all good however it works out.

We want the best for our kids, and if it is within the rules, I at least am trying to see if we have a legitimate case or not.  There are a few other older age groups that have more than eight teams, and I was trying to figure out the processes as to how that came about.

Thanks for the comments and I always appreciate the knowledge I glean from this forum.  :drinks:

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merenguemom

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 08:45:47 AM »

Is staying in RCL 1 really "best for the kids?"  What do you want them to learn from this experience?  That their parents or coaches will always swoop in and save them from ignominy? That as long as you are affiliated with power (ie "big club") you don't have to play by the rules that everyone else does?

As a "big club" team, they surely will still be able to play in out of state tournaments to get high level competition and make it into the state cup out of RCL2.  Wouldn't it be a great college essay to write about going down a division and coming back from adversity to advance into late state cup rounds due to their own hard work instead of because parents and club pulled strings?
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2017, 08:46:30 AM »

Good grief.  Someone has to finish last.  I can't imagine what happened, except what happens to many teams...injuries, illness, etc. but that is the nature of the beast IMHO.  Our team started out in first place, and due to some unfortunate circumstances ended up in 5th.  Should we be promoted?  Nope.  I can't imagine why the team should not be relegated, but again, just my opinion.  Last place is last place (profound statement, I know).

 :angel:
But it isn't relevant to anything. A "last place" team can be the same strength as a 5th or 6th or 7th place team. If the differences aren't statistically significant, it doesn't make sense to organize leagues around them. It doesn't do anyone any good to deliberately create mismatched divisions, solely because promotion-relegation is a ticket-selling gimmick in the professional leagues. These aren't professional leagues, no one is buying tickets, and the goal should be to organize the leagues in a way that gives the highest percentage of close, competitive games. Blindly worshipping a mindless formula doesn't do that. Period. This isn't the only example where that strategy could fail - it's fairly common actually.
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2017, 08:48:59 AM »

Is staying in RCL 1 really "best for the kids?"  What do you want them to learn from this experience?  That their parents or coaches will always swoop in and save them from ignominy? That as long as you are affiliated with power (ie "big club") you don't have to play by the rules that everyone else does?

As a "big club" team, they surely will still be able to play in out of state tournaments to get high level competition and make it into the state cup out of RCL2.  Wouldn't it be a great college essay to write about going down a division and coming back from adversity to advance into late state cup rounds due to their own hard work instead of because parents and club pulled strings?
A great essay. We were misplaced in a low division due to an incompetent adult bureaucracy, beat up on a bunch of weaker teams there, and finished exactly where we had been all along. I'm inspired.
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2017, 09:11:43 AM »

Also in this particular case, the team had a better winning percentage than one team, and the same as two others. I.e. They were 1 of 3 teams with a record of -4, and there was a team that was -5. Using traditional scoring (2 for a win, one for a tie) they would have been tied for 5th through 7th based on points, and in 5th due to superior goal differential. The only reason they are in "last place" is because the league used a scoring system (rewarding wins) that was designed to make the professional leagues more exciting. Not a sensible reason to punish kids.
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NKSoccerFan

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2017, 09:54:01 AM »

Your DOC can always make the attempt. 
State your case with things like head-to-head results vs D1 and D2 teams (e.g. summer tournaments), LastPlanet rankings, and whatever statistics work. 
Looking at those statistics, is there a clear distinction between the teams in order to expand the size of the bracket?
What's the worst that can happen? 


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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2017, 10:19:16 AM »

Lastplanet rankings show the failure of the promotion/relegation algorithm.

RCL Division 3 has team #5 and team #50 (431 point spread)
RCL Division 2 has team #4 and team #34 (300 point spread)
RCL Division 1 has team #1 and team #14 (371 point spread)

Now some of those places are filled by teams not in the RCL, but even within the RCL, the league formation is an objective failure.

Of course, I still like the idea of having one division, but with the season organized like a tournament organized according to Swiss system rules. It's used in the gaming world (chess initially) and it naturally ranks all teams and gives the closest competition. It is sort of like a continuous process of promotion and relegation, rather than the arbitrary and random method used in pro soccer to drum up interest in otherwise irrelevant games.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 10:42:45 AM by tripleplay »
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NKSoccerFan

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2017, 11:16:27 AM »


Of course, I still like the idea of having one division, but with the season organized like a tournament organized according to Swiss system rules. It's used in the gaming world (chess initially) and it naturally ranks all teams and gives the closest competition. It is sort of like a continuous process of promotion and relegation, rather than the arbitrary and random method used in pro soccer to drum up interest in otherwise irrelevant games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

Based on a very brief scan of the wikipedia page for Swiss System Tournament, it would make a lot of sense and theoretically increase the possibility of like-like competition.  Probably a variation such as McMahaon using objective rankings (e.g. LP) to set the initial pairings. 

Could require some thought to handle scheduling home vs away, travel, etc. 

Unfortunately, WYS is incapable of this kind of innovation.   ::)
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morrisson66

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2017, 07:42:42 PM »

I'm pretty sure I know which team this is. Anyway move down to Division 2 like you're supposed to, beat up on the teams there and come back into Div 1 with confidence. It does a lot more for character to fight back than it does to have mom and dad fight the kid's battles for them. Div 2 defends differently and poses a different set of problems for kids. Sure the speed of play is lower and less technical, but outside of PacNW and Spokane, Div1 isn't very technical either. If I'm correct about which team this is, then your team lacks in this area.

You mentioned development in your initial post. If you actually think the club, whether big or not, will develop your daughter then you are sorely mistaken. The only clubs in the area with actual development systems are PacNW and Washington Premier. Other than that the development is up to single coaches without any actual club wide vision. Basically if you want your child to develop, pay for private training, take them to pickup games where older children are playing, contact coaches of older teams and ask for practice time with them, watch and analyze professional soccer games and video your child's play in games and practice for personal analysis. If you aren't willing to pay for private training, learn specific skills, video while the skills are being done and then analyze to make sure the skills are done correctly. Basically development is a painstaking process that doesn't take place on any team. Most players on most teams are severely technically lacking and being in Div 2 won't change that. In fact being in Div 2 offers your child a chance to learn new skills and try them in a safer environment.

In the end, develop your child on your own in addition to club training. Stay in Div 2 or find a new team where you think your child will actually develop in some way. Show your child how hard work on their own pays off and stop complaining about political b.s. If the team is in Div 2, then they belong there. If the team imploded, they belong there. If they are the team I think they are, they belong there. What you do with this situation beyond putting on the bandaid of Division 1 is up to you.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 07:49:21 PM by morrisson66 »
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lester

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2017, 08:36:09 PM »

...In the end, develop your child on your own in addition to club training. Stay in Div 2 or find a new team where you think your child will actually develop in some way...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all the above posts are right, but morrisson66 nails it (except for the development part, you're past that stage) you are missing the whole philosophy of the RCL.  It's the top of the pyramid, RCL 1 the pinnacle of a player oriented system, not a team system.
Your team isn't supposed to stay up, just your best players, especially by HS age.  They're expected to move on to a remaining RCL 1 club.  That's the way the system is built to work.  Its the only way WYS can justify a league like the RCL.
Thanks for playing, but we only want these three girls.  Enjoy your experience.
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morrisson66

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2017, 09:20:46 PM »


Quote
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all the above posts are right, but morrisson66 nails it (except for the development part, you're past that stage) you are missing the whole philosophy of the RCL.  It's the top of the pyramid, RCL 1 the pinnacle of a player oriented system, not a team system.

Development never actually stops. That idea that it all has to happen by age 12 is a myth. Megan Rapino came back from France noticeably more technical than before she left. I've seen college players improve their first touch. I don't get why people think that development has to stop.
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2017, 09:33:39 PM »

I'm not sure whether it is hilarious or sad to see all of these parents who are so desperate to live through their kids that they defend an idiotic system because they want to pretend their kids are playing in the Premier League, or La Liga, or some other professional league. News flash. They aren't. This childishness leads to a lot of mismatched games and wasted time for all concerned. The system is an obvious failure, even though the poster's team was not the biggest victim - there are teams even more misplaced.
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2017, 09:41:30 PM »


Of course, I still like the idea of having one division, but with the season organized like a tournament organized according to Swiss system rules. It's used in the gaming world (chess initially) and it naturally ranks all teams and gives the closest competition. It is sort of like a continuous process of promotion and relegation, rather than the arbitrary and random method used in pro soccer to drum up interest in otherwise irrelevant games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

Based on a very brief scan of the wikipedia page for Swiss System Tournament, it would make a lot of sense and theoretically increase the possibility of like-like competition.  Probably a variation such as McMahaon using objective rankings (e.g. LP) to set the initial pairings. 

Could require some thought to handle scheduling home vs away, travel, etc. 

Unfortunately, WYS is incapable of this kind of innovation.   ::)
It would definitely require some adaptations to work for a soccer league, but it seems doable in principle. Gaming tournaments are usually designed to be optimally efficient, but soccer leagues usually have a different objective - the goal is to have an appropriate number of games (far greater than needed to rank the teams). So you could accelerate the pairing and fix a certain number of games (like 2 or 3), then adapt from there. And I would say sports bureaucracies detest innovation with every fiber of their being. It's all about who to mindlessly copy - if the Premier league does something then I can pretend I am in the Premier league by doing the same thing. Never mind how many kids it screws.
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Anfield Boy

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2017, 12:11:55 PM »

European professional league. Mind you, automatic promotion and relegation doesn't make much sense in that venue, either, but it at least there it is a way to sell tickets to otherwise meaningless games, so there is a financial purpose.

I think there's boatloads more than "financial purpose" going on here...
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tripleplay

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2017, 04:23:19 PM »

European professional league. Mind you, automatic promotion and relegation doesn't make much sense in that venue, either, but it at least there it is a way to sell tickets to otherwise meaningless games, so there is a financial purpose.

I think there's boatloads more than "financial purpose" going on here...

Stands look pretty full to me. Great for a business owner. Not a great reason for adult soccer pols to be lazy and screw kids.
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gtaker

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2017, 09:57:49 PM »

I'm pretty sure I know which team this is. Anyway move down to Division 2 like you're supposed to, beat up on the teams there and come back into Div 1 with confidence. It does a lot more for character to fight back than it does to have mom and dad fight the kid's battles for them. Div 2 defends differently and poses a different set of problems for kids. Sure the speed of play is lower and less technical, but outside of PacNW and Spokane, Div1 isn't very technical either. If I'm correct about which team this is, then your team lacks in this area.

You mentioned development in your initial post. If you actually think the club, whether big or not, will develop your daughter then you are sorely mistaken. The only clubs in the area with actual development systems are PacNW and Washington Premier. Other than that the development is up to single coaches without any actual club wide vision. Basically if you want your child to develop, pay for private training, take them to pickup games where older children are playing, contact coaches of older teams and ask for practice time with them, watch and analyze professional soccer games and video your child's play in games and practice for personal analysis. If you aren't willing to pay for private training, learn specific skills, video while the skills are being done and then analyze to make sure the skills are done correctly. Basically development is a painstaking process that doesn't take place on any team. Most players on most teams are severely technically lacking and being in Div 2 won't change that. In fact being in Div 2 offers your child a chance to learn new skills and try them in a safer environment.

In the end, develop your child on your own in addition to club training. Stay in Div 2 or find a new team where you think your child will actually develop in some way. Show your child how hard work on their own pays off and stop complaining about political b.s. If the team is in Div 2, then they belong there. If the team imploded, they belong there. If they are the team I think they are, they belong there. What you do with this situation beyond putting on the bandaid of Division 1 is up to you.

Seriously PacNW and Washington Premier are the only club developing players ..... I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 10:07:25 PM by gtaker »
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deldietch

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2017, 02:30:39 PM »

I'm not sure it's that those clubs actively develop...but they do allow players the opportunity to play up.  I know that WP allows it's RCL players chances to guest on ECNL. PacNW girls teams are currently at the top or close to it at all ages.

How many players on the so called Reign "B" teams were called up to guest last year?  Zero.  But Reign sure grabbed a lot of players not from the club!  Reign even rostered players from outside clubs that were RCL3 to finish the year rather than allow internal growth of the players in their own system.

As for regulation of this A team, if the team performed well in last years FWRL, or has a good summer, the DOC and coach can make the argument to bring them into RCL 1.  The problem though is that looking at RCL2, you have at least two top teams in those age groups that are far above the pack.  Those teams deserve a shot as well, since they obviously play way above the level of the other RCL2 teams according to the season results.

How many top tier players have been moved to this "A" team from the level above them?  if it's more than 5, thats enough to change the speed of play and the makeup of the team.  If they do well against high level competition over the summer, then you can make the argument.  But from what I heard the teams club is boycotting all the top end tournaments sponsored by the big "A" team that sits across 520..so you may never know.
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All for One

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2017, 02:58:06 PM »

...In the end, develop your child on your own in addition to club training. Stay in Div 2 or find a new team where you think your child will actually develop in some way...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all the above posts are right, but morrisson66 nails it (except for the development part, you're past that stage) you are missing the whole philosophy of the RCL.  It's the top of the pyramid, RCL 1 the pinnacle of a player oriented system, not a team system.
Your team isn't supposed to stay up, just your best players, especially by HS age.  They're expected to move on to a remaining RCL 1 club.  That's the way the system is built to work.  Its the only way WYS can justify a league like the RCL.
Thanks for playing, but we only want these three girls.  Enjoy your experience.

At least partly why the BCSPL has a fixed number of clubs (8) and only those clubs field teams in the top league in the province. The intent is to have the kids (not teams) move to those 8 clubs if they want to make their way up the ladder. And only players at those 8 clubs are eligible for the Provincial teams (like EPD in WA). It's a player pyramid, not a team pyramid.
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ThiKuBC

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2017, 07:44:30 AM »

I appreciate your opinion Cmon-man, seriously.  I would like to hear more negative comments if someone feels that way.  To be honest, though, I haven't encountered hardly anyone that doesn't think that we have a legitimate proposal. 

Here is a few more stats about the season:  Our team never gave up more than two goals, and in the games we lost, we never lost by more than one goal.  Rustysurf pointed out that the two top teams are a cut above the rest (no disagreement), but even against those teams, we tied them twice and lost by one goal to each. 

Since the bylaws state that nine teams can be in Div. 1, why should we need to play in Div. 2? For those that agree with me, please help me with what is the proper course of action to take.  Our team would really appreciate your help.

automatic pro-rel at youth level is antiquated, and makes no sense. We do not have that here in Canada (in BC anyway) nor should we. At least based on the description here of only -3, never concede more than 2 goals this team is at the right level of play and should not be relegated. The question though becomes - who does get relegated, because you have this established system of pro-rel which means there is a team in the division below that now believes they must move to a higher level of play (which presumably they should, though that's not always the case - for example a team here can dominate tier 3, but get smashed in tier 2).
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ThiKuBC

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2017, 07:46:13 AM »

Is staying in RCL 1 really "best for the kids?"  What do you want them to learn from this experience?  That their parents or coaches will always swoop in and save them from ignominy? That as long as you are affiliated with power (ie "big club") you don't have to play by the rules that everyone else does?

As a "big club" team, they surely will still be able to play in out of state tournaments to get high level competition and make it into the state cup out of RCL2.  Wouldn't it be a great college essay to write about going down a division and coming back from adversity to advance into late state cup rounds due to their own hard work instead of because parents and club pulled strings?

very well said - a great argument to relegate them regardless of their on-field performance in the beginning of the season.
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ThiKuBC

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Re: RCL Div 1 relegation
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2017, 07:50:21 AM »

...In the end, develop your child on your own in addition to club training. Stay in Div 2 or find a new team where you think your child will actually develop in some way...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all the above posts are right, but morrisson66 nails it (except for the development part, you're past that stage) you are missing the whole philosophy of the RCL.  It's the top of the pyramid, RCL 1 the pinnacle of a player oriented system, not a team system.
Your team isn't supposed to stay up, just your best players, especially by HS age.  They're expected to move on to a remaining RCL 1 club.  That's the way the system is built to work.  Its the only way WYS can justify a league like the RCL.
Thanks for playing, but we only want these three girls.  Enjoy your experience.

At least partly why the BCSPL has a fixed number of clubs (8) and only those clubs field teams in the top league in the province. The intent is to have the kids (not teams) move to those 8 clubs if they want to make their way up the ladder. And only players at those 8 clubs are eligible for the Provincial teams (like EPD in WA). It's a player pyramid, not a team pyramid.

All for One is correct - having an elite tier closed here is to pool the best players, not promote "teams". This is a theory I agree with.

Just a note - players at Division 1/MSL can also play for the provincial teams. Don't drink that kool aid fella :) Whitecaps also sign players from outside BCSPL (go look at their u18 and u16 roster on their web site - shows previous teams) :) Having spoke with Craig Dalrymple, he will promote BCSPL (as he should, he's correct to do so) but he will not turn away a player from outside BCSPL if they are good enough (nor should he!).
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